100 Favourite Power Boats - Old Hat

Re: Oi! No!

OK OK so you have been run ragged by the boat manufacturers. But the situation will NEVER improve for you journos or us the boat buying public unless you use your position to publicy out these companies that screw you around when you've gone to such lengths to organise a boat test.

I am sure from what you have said you and your colleagues are extremely professional in your approach towards these boat builders. It this professionalism that shines through in your publications such as MBY and that is why we here on the board buy them and why we give a damn about the content.

I do think however that when you get screwed around by these companies you should lambast them publicly and make sure that the next time you schedule your valuable time to review their prodcuts they take you seriously and set aside the people and resources to assist. If you did lambast them a little in public it would also give us an insight into the mentallity of some of these manufacturers, becasue if they are prepared to treat the press this way then it is unlikely a customer will get better treatment. Let's not be too British and roll over when these companies don't play ball.

I can't imagine this happening in the US.



yada yada..<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by wakeup on Wed May 15 12:09:51 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
ROFL.

Well I cracked a smile at least - the thought of the mighty exploding toilet tumbeling down into his cockpit <G>

Go left, YOUR OTHER left for pete's sake
(IMHO, BTW, FWIW and NWGOI)
 
Re: Politics

And this is where it all gets a bit political. From a purely journalistic point of view, does the reader give a stuff about the difficulties involved in getting a test done? Not really. They want to know whether the boat's any good or not. The journalist's job is to impart that information, not bleat on about how crap the marine trade's PR is.

If the boating magazines boycotted a manufacturer until they agreed to play ball, several things would happen. The manufacturer would withdraw his advertising which could cost the magazine tens of thousands of pounds. Do that times (for instance) five manufacturers and the magazine goes bust fairly quickly. In the meantime, the readers would complain that we never test Princeseekerlines any more. Then they'd complain that there are no boating magazines left. And please don't hold up the Americans as a shining example (of anything). Their consumer press is among the worst in the world for cow-towing to the manufacturers and producing anodyne pap devoid of integrity.

Your point about how "if this is how the manufacturers treat the press, how badly will they treat the punter?" doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Punters have money and hand it over in large quantities. Journalists have no money and just make annoying demands, ask irritating questions, and expect to be able to write what they think...and get away with it! Ergo, punters get treated with infinitely more respect than the press (we were thrown off a boat last week in favour of a couple who were about to place a very big order).

The relationship between press and boat-builder is very different than that between press and car manufacturer. In the automotive world the press is treated with a degree of respect, it is aknowledged that most journalists know what they're on about, and the manufacturers respect the opinions of the press, even if they don't always agree with them. In the marine trade, the magazines are seen as an extension of the boat-builder's marketing department, who have to be slapped if they step out of line. Until that relationship changes, the boat-testers have to put up with crap treatment in the interests of maintaining our journalistic integrity. Many people think the magazines are in the manufacturers pockets, but you wouldn't think that if you were to be present at the slanging matches between editors and their advertising managers.

It would be great to "out" the builders and importers who treat us with contempt or attempt to use their ad spends as sticks with which to beat us, but we are a business like any other, we have to show a profit, and we need their money in order that we can spend five days in Fort Lauderdale with our collective thumb up our collective jacksie, watching the rain come down and wondering if they'll ever get that feckin boat ready.

So we continue to bite our tongues and try to educate the marine trade in the ways of 21st century press relations. It'll take time, but things are improving. What we really need is another major recession...that usually concentrates the minds of the suppliers of over-priced luxury goods (sadly it concentrates the minds of publishers and ad managers, too).

There is no simple answer, I'm afraid. We try to do our best for the readership, while retaining cordial relations with the trade and maintaining a stand-off with the ad department.
 
Re: Politics

Well I think you've just proven then that the UK press have a problem with their relationship with the manufacturers and haven't deceided who they are serving.

Are you there to serve us the reader who are also paying for the privilige to read the magazine or are you there to provide a service to the marketing departments of the manufacturers. You need to be crystal clear on this point and I don't think you can be from what you're saying. If you don't want to be the whipping boys of the manufacturers marketing departments you need to change the balance of power somehow. The power lies with the manufacturers as far as I can see becasue you are too dependent upon the advertising revenues.

So there are several ways you can change the balance, increase the price of the magazine (I would rather pay and extra £2 per copy if this bought more independance from the manufacturers) and I wouldn't be too concerned about one manufacturer pulling their advertising, they won't want to seem to be out of circulation for long. No visibility will mean no sales. MBY is probably the leading MB magazine, you shouldn't worry too much about manufactuers pulling the plug. Where else are they going to advertise in the UK, they might as well shut up shop if they don't advertise in either MBY or MBM.

I also think you need to have more confidence in the influence you have over where a punter like me will spend my money. Comments in either good or bad directions can sway 10s to 100s of us to spend in a particular direction and the manufacturers ignore this at their risk.

But I think above all it is down to the press to make the change happen. We the public can't, the manufacturers won't change becasue they have got you where they want you. Like it or not it was the Clarkson (Don't give a damn) approach that helped to establish the motor journalists credibility.




yada yada..
 
Re: Politics

Well theres honesty for you, and right from the horses mouth.
So like I said. Us lot can find you all the boats you need to test. New ones and older ones. (But not many left old enough for the title of this thread!!) So no shortage. You can do a fair report on Depsol's engine, and maybe a little word in Volpoo's ear before printing. Bit like that dog watch program on the telly. Get loads of new readers then. Then the boatie building tribe and blumin assolsiated plastic engine stickeriny lot will have to tag along cos, where else are they going to advertise.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn
 
Re: Politics

I have to emphasise that the stuff I'm posting here is my own personal opinion, as a person who has been a consumer journalist for over 20 years in the car, motorcycle and marine markets. This is me, as an individual, giving my opinion, and not necessarily that of any magazine.

That said, yes...the boating magazines can (and do) get boats to test from sources other than the builder/importer. It makes no difference to the report...they are considered, impartial and written by highly experienced and qualified journalists. The magazines have often found in the past that although a builder may claim not to have a model to test, there are examples of that boat to be found elsewhere in the world. Which is why boat-testers find themselves in Palma or Miami testing boats built in the UK.

It's a fine line we tread in the press v manufacturers debate. Watchdog and Clarkson are on BBC and thus not reliant on ad revenue. Likewise, Which? magazine can say what the hell it likes. But that doesn't mean that magazines funded by ad income (which is most of them) are in the pockets of the advertisers. If that were the case you wouldn't have read less than complimentary reports on things like the S41 and the Targa 52. It's a balancing act, and it's not always an easy one, but we like to think that we get it right more often than we get in wrong.
 
Re: THAT TEST IN FULL: hlb\'s boat

Breaking with our usual habit of testing a sparkling yet sterile brand new boat, this month we decided take an in-depth look at a used boat. And boats don't get more used than hlb's, so we'll start there. Although the manufacturer pleaded with us not to mention the name, it's a Princess.

These boats have a good pedigree, and in hlb's case it also has a fair bit of Winalot. The family dog attached himself to my left leg upon arrival and let go only occassionally.

With any boat test we usually take advantage of the pristine condition of the boat upon arrival, so the photographer normally takes his pictures before a sea trial. However, this wasn't possible, as H had set off by the time the photographr had arrived. "F**'im and his effing fotograf kompetishun!" said our host, and off we went.

Princess are based in Plymouth and so is H's boat. The town marina gives easy access to the huge protected harbour. So we have a pleasant motor out towards the breakwater to check that all is well before reaching the open sea. However, H is anxious to show us the capabilities of his boat as soon as possible, and leaps on to the plane even before the Hoe is in sight. I'm worried, but his deklightful wife Tutt controls the situation "Tha daft booga! 'Av nobutt bin barn telt ya to stop tha frittin tret!" I think she said, and belted him with the boat hook. There ensued a severe yet good-natured lancashire-style exchange of views, where each of them attacked the other with a variety of boating implements. I retired to the saloon.

For its size, the flybridge Princesses are spacious indeed, and afford plenty of opportunty for the owner to adapt the boat to their individual tastes. Our skipper has somehow managed to squeeze in a large television, indvidual armchairs, a pastchwork of different coloured carpets and a log fire with H's slippers warming on the hearth. Further forward, the galley stove was warming a large black cauldron of what seemed to be three rabbits and a sack of potoatoes.

Now past the western edge of the breakwater, H and his wife have confidently put the boat on autopilot to circle the Eddystone lighthouse, and joined me below. Their disagreement had apparently been terminated as quickly as it had started. I commented admiringly that they'd made the place feel so homely, with framed charts on the port side cabin wall. "No" said Tutt "The port's behind us yer daft ha'porth, that's where we started!"

"Ignore 'er" said H. "She's as witted as a weavers's grommit!" and continued the tour, ignoring the two pints of stout which his wife poured over his head.

One measure of good internal design is the amount of useable space in the saloon and cabins, and in this the Princess excels. Haydn's boat even has space for two spare gearboxes in the main cabin, and in the guest cabin the overhead locker doors have been cut out and covered over with chicken wire, creating innovative homes for two pigeons and a family of ferrets.

My leg is suddenly let free by the dog as I go to open the door to the heads, and the animal retreats back to the cockpit yelping and whining. "Ah'd be fair full wary of thi gannin that thar there then bogs, sonny" says H, with a knowing smile. There's a sudden roll of thunder from outside and lightening flashes across the sky. But it all seems very pleasant, and I decide to close the door and use the facilities. But the WC won't flush. I hear cackling screams of laughter outside, and a distant gurgling, almost groaing, from the toilet bowl. I press the switches again and again. Suddenly, the entire contents of the holding tank burst upwards from the toilet bowl, a forceful gush hitting the ceiling and exploding around the confined space. In a dreadful state, and holding my breath, I run from the WC back through the saloon and hurl myself into sea.

From up on the flybridge, Tutt cuts the engine revs and circles me as i attempt to clean myself up whilst bobbing around in the developing swell. "It's nowt to get worried about lad!" she says cheerfully. Later, despite a change of clothes the experience leaves me completely without any appettte. H and Tutt tuck into their hotpot, and then use the toilet uneventfully.

The wind rises, and the waves grow higher. "Yeehah!" shrieks haydyn, as the boat handles the waves with some aplomb. There are crashing noises from below, and then the chugging noise decreases as the gearbox gives up. "Eh, get thi tha darn there wi' t'spare one lass" shouts H, and to my utter incredulity Tut does exactly that, somehow swapping the starboard gearbox for one that she reconditioned earlier and kept by the bed, whilst the boat proceeds on one engine in a rising F5.

The new gearbox performs beautifully, and H puts it through its paces as we return to the marina. "This'll learn that blimmin %$£!! marina manger" he says with a sly grin and instructs everyone to hold tight and not bother with fenders. He stays on the plane as we go through the lock at free flow, cuts one engine and hauls boat to starboard. We storm sideways across the main fairway and the boat is hurled against H's already very battered and creaking pontoon. He seems to have been alllocated the entire section of the marina to himself.

Unsurprisingly, the editor has decided not to test any more user's boats, and I have decided to seek employment away from the marine industry as soon as I am out of hospital and recovered from rabies, cholera and pneumonia.
 
Re: Politics

Thank you for your open and honest oppinions.

First time I've seen a journo brave enough to come onto this board and what's more add valuable insight.

R E S P E C T.

yada yada..
 
Re: Politics

"A problem" is probably overstating the case, but it is an area where things could be improved. With regard to the magazines deciding who they're serving...there's no doubt at all. It is the reader. It would be very easy to produce a magazine full of glowing tests that would keep the marine trade happy, but the readers wouldn't have it and the whole thing would go to hell in a handcart. And the reader isn't best served by magazines going bust.

The reason Clarkson got away with it was that he was dealing with a "grown-up" industry that didn't throw all its toys out of the pram the minute he said something uncomplimentary. They accepted it, and moved on. And press criticism is taken seriously by the automotive manufacturers...they don't take it personally, and they even change things as a result. Also, Clarkson was on the Beeb and had no advertisers to upset.

There is a school of thought that says "stuff the advertisers...they'll come crawling back", but that's not popular with an ad sales exec with commission to earn this month, a mortgage to pay this month, and children to feed this week.

But the marine press continues to encourage dialogue and change, and the majority of builders and importers treat us with respect and try their hardest to help us. It's in everybody's best interests for us to have respected boat magazines with integrity, and that's what we have. They may not be perfect, but they've got bigger balls and sharper teeth than almost any other nation's press.
 
Re: Politics

Wakeup says: "the UK press ....haven't deceided who they are serving...... the reader ....or ......the marketing departments of the manufacturers. You need to be crystal clear on this point "

The answer IS crystal clear. They're serving their shareholders, which is exactly what they're supposed to do. The shareholders, by the way, are currently the Time/AOL shareholders and until recently were 15 Cinven directors, group of 100 pension fund types (largest being the UK Coal and Rail workers pension funds, and the state workers and teachers of California pension fund), and a few others.

So, dose of reality. If someone wants to print a magazine that "serves" its readers, that's fine. But MBY is not that magazine. For as long as MBY is being run for its shareholders, whose objective in the last ownership was cash generation and in the AOL era I spect it's much the same, it has to meet its shareholders objectives. It has to weigh up its negotiating position and balance the demands of ad buyers/boat manufacturers with the natural journalistic desire for independent reporting, and meet part way, which is wot it does imho.

This isn't unusual really. OK, institutions like "The Times" which rely on readership not advertisers can apply higher standards of independence, though ahem will not bash Murdoch interests too hard. But you wont find Elle, Marie Claire, etc running articles saying Estee Lauder products are a bit crap

So, that's how it is, until someone wants to print a non-capitalist mag, or a capitalist one that charges praps £5 a copy and is quite thin becuase not many ads. Until then, we the readers have to translate what we read, check out the boats ourselves before we buy, and post comments on here about how bad the V65 pasarelle set-up is, how short an arse you need to sit on the saloon seats of a Targa 52, and how Volvo's people think the laws of physis were suspended long enuf for Depsol's wake to whoosh up his exhaust and get past the exhaust valves of his running engine.
 
Re: THAT TEST IN FULL: hlb\'s boat

An excelent report. And full of truthfull and informative facts. Now why cant MBY do that.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn
 
Re: Politics

I think your view of the only way a magazine can be truly independant is polarised.

I wouldn't buy a magazine without any adverts in it because they also serve a purpose of informing me the buyer as to whats available on the market.

I do think though that there is a balance that can be attained that wil satisfy the shareholders.

The equation works like this and it isn't exclusive to this problem but I am teaching granny to such eggs here aren't I jfm?

Begin

More independent reports = More integrity

More integrity = More respect

More respect = More readers

More readers = More revenue

More readers = More willing and compliant advertisers

More advertisers = More revenue

More revenue = Happy and more shareholders (assuming proper corporate governance and therefore more profit)

More revnue (and Profit) = more to spend on independent reports which takes us back to the beginning.



yada yada..
 
Re: Politics

We have to live with the fact the mags are not independent. In a market where the publishing co has been ordered to generate cash, and there are only a few big ad space buyers so high reliance £££-wise on each one, and few competitors (there are two MB mags, both owned by the same group), the mag cannot be independent from the builders when it writes a boat report. And it's worse still when (apparently) it can't get boats to test (and boat tests are crucial to cover sales) if it pisses off the builder! So, not arguing, just saying that the mags are manifestly not independent. Unlike Clarkson or a BBC journo, as Tom ponts out. You just have to read the boatie mags in that light, that's all, and check out boats yourself b4 you buy!

Your virtuous circle is a nice idea but no-one (including many who know more about publishing consumer mags than me) has ever done it. I spect reason is that the mag will have integrity but no advertising (initially, till you spiral further in the circle) and no content due to non avail of test boats, so no readership :-)
 
Re: Politics

I think you need to have a word with Mr H, your esteemed editor, because I got a private message from him a few days ago slapping my wrists for daring to suggest in another thread that there was some connection between advertising revenue and editorial content in his magazine. Mr H seems to think that MBY/MBM is a shining example of free thinking independent journalism but your posts refreshingly suggest otherwise
Personally, I agree with everyone else in that group boat tests would be a far better way of testing boats but I just dont believe this crap about difficulties in getting boats together at the same time and I rather tend to think that the reason has more to do with the fact that any group test would have to arrive at some sort of ranking which would piss off the manufacturers at the bottom and your advertising dept would'nt want that, would they? Why do you have to ask manufacturers to provide boats for test anyway? Why not ask us, the owners? I cant think that many people would object to having their pride and joy featured in a boating rag even if it ends up being trashed. And why limit group tests to new or newish boats anyway? Most of us are out there grubbing around in the secondhand market so why not group test secondhand boats as well and you dont need to get those from the dealers either
On the subject of testing generally, I also suggest that your tests are becoming more of a review rather than a test in that, as some have already pointed out, seakeeping and handling seem to be assessed only on the basis of a quick flick around the bay rather than any serious passage making.
 
Re: Politics

jfm, I think we are in violent agreement here about the role of the magazines

My virtuous spiral is over simplyfing the whole thing but I do think it is all about trying to keep some sort of equitable balance between the needs of the boat builders and the readers with clearly the journos stuck in the middle of a tug of revenue.

I feel that the balance at the moment is in favour of the manufacturers and it is down to us to influence the likes of MBY to try and bring the balance back a little in favour of the readers.

Otherwise MBY might as well publish extracts from the manufacturers brochure and we would all be none the wiser. I think that the MB mags need to use their teeth a little more, afterall they have a brand the Boat Manufacturers can leverage. Just look at Windy they quote MBY re their mirage in every advert. They wouldn't do that if they didn't think the MBY brand was worth anything.

yada yada..
 
Re: nice idea, not realistic

I like the idea wakeup, but in reality it won't work. Or, it hasn't worked. And for reasons of integrity, if it can't always work, then the integrity aspect is spoiled, cos you can't have a little bit of integrity, or occassional integrity.

A real life example happened with these Mangustas that MBY were planning to review/test. First off, there are two sorts of boats - those theat sell like hot cakes (so there's a waiting list) and those that are duds (so man'fs a bit wary of having them tested adversely).

The mangusta 108 is firmly of the first group. The waiing list is three years +. The people who buyem have 8million quid to burn on the boat and another 500-800k a year to run the thing. They don;t neeed the publiciti and may have bought the thing to avoid publicity in the first place. They're also a bit one-off.

So anyway, MBY ring and ring and ring a load of people . The boat has been sold, paid for long before mby can get their mitts on it. So they have to plead with owner. But the manufacturer daren't even give them that info - it's a private sale. Now what? Print a nasty little "we asked to have a free go in it to sell some mags but didn't get anywhere?"

Same applies to lots of less glamourous boats.

Nonetheless, the back-to-back idea is good. But I think that it wd have to be worked on for ages and ages, an attempt to get a dozen boats together and hope for six.
 
Re: nice idea, not realistic

I suppose I would expect that with something as big and as exotic as the Mangustas.

But there are loads of boats in 30 to 50ft range that should be available either through manufacturers or their dealers.

yada yada..<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by wakeup on Wed May 15 17:36:54 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: worth a try

ok. well, i agree that it would be worth a go, praps set a £200k boat test or a £100k boat test, tellem to bring summink along that costs that much. If they didn't come to the first one they would surely come to the second one. I bet.
 
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