Question regarding ML5/ENG1 eyesight requirements.

[mcaquestion]

I have worn glasses all my life. I may at some point have shot at YM coastal or offshore and am wondering about whether to look for a commercial endorsement which would enable me to skipper (say) a charter yacht.

On the MLA5 the two relevant questions for me are these:

b) Is the applicant unable to read 6/6 on the Snellen Chart at six metres distance in at least one eye even with glasses or contact lenses ?

No issue here - wearing glasses my eyesight easily meets this requirement.

c) Is the applicant unable to read 6/60 with at least one eye without any visual aid?

I would most likely fail c).

Failing c) would result in a referral if as I understand it. What would the likely outcome of the referral be?

Thanks.

 

[Sandy]

Welcome to the Forum. Quite a technical question to kick off, a chat with your optician should give you the answers.

 

[johnalison]

Interesting question. Good luck.

 

[Kelpie]

I've been through this recently myself. It depends on how well versed the doctor it's with the requirements.
I failed one ML5 because the doctor read it as being uncorrected vision that counted. The paperwork ended up being shuffled between the RYA and MCA over a number of weeks and eventually I was advised that I should consider getting glasses if I wanted to do any watch keeping duties (despite having worn glasses already most of my life!)

I passed the more stringent ENG1 though, because these exams are only carried out by MCA accredited doctors, who actually know what they're doing!

 

[skipperwales]

I do loads of these for lifeboat medicals. Snellen charts in GP surgeries are usually ad hoc and not calibrated. Thats fine if people pass easily, but , if borderline, it makes sense to take the paperwork to an Optician and get an absolute answer.

 

[mcaquestion]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I am quite clear on the eyesight testing element as I have been going to opticians and eye doctors since I was a kid - half a century of eye test experience give or take.

What I am trying to find out is what is the result of failing the minimum unaided sight test while at the same time passing the corrected sight test.

Thanks,

Simon

 

[PeterBoater]

It might be that if you can't make the unaided 6/60 part, then the RYA/MCA will endorse your ML5 that you must carry a spare pair of glasses. That's a wise precaution for all boating anyway; someone in the RNLI told me that they do get called out to boats where the solo skipper's glasses have gone over the side and the skipper either can't read the chart or can't see outside to get back to harbour. The RYA administers the ML5 on behalf of the MCA, so if the RYA turns you down flat, make sure that it is referred up to the MCA doctors.

 

[mcaquestion]

It might be that if you can't make the unaided 6/60 part, then the RYA/MCA will endorse your ML5 that you must carry a spare pair of glasses. That's a wise precaution for all boating anyway; …

On a laser or similar I don't bring spare glasses. On a yacht I bring 3 or more pairs not counting reading glasses. And I always have a spare in the car too.

 

[lpdsn]

c) Is the applicant unable to read 6/60 with at least one eye without any visual aid?

Is your unaided eyesight really that bad? My interpretation, based on my understanding of explanations from opticians in the past, is that 6/60 means you can read at 6m what a 'normal' person can read at 60m. That would imply very strong glasses. If you chat to an optician it may not turn out to be as bad as you think.

 

[Uricanejack]

I used to have no problem reading the whole card.
Not so much any more.
I just made the required 3 line from the bottom line 6 at 20/40 unaided. so I passed.

The UK rules may have changed. It used to be required before starting in the industry you passed unaided vision and color (lantern) tests.
Vison tests continue for every medical. Now an STCW requirement.

I may be wrong.

Old farts, like me who have been tested and passed in the past can appeal. Its unusual for a new entrant to be issued a medical if the basic requirements are not met.
All medicals which are not passed, can be appealed.
An unaided sight test failure and will possibly be issued a medical with a restriction requiring glasses. After seeing an optition and sending in a full report.

New to marine industry. Fail unaided vision requirement. Appeal much less likely.

If interested in obtaining a commercial certification. I would recommend doing a Marine Medical first. Appealing or sorting out any issues first. Before spending time and money on course you may not be able to use as intended.

Shouldn't make any difference to taking a YM for personal interest. Not sure but I think the RYA will issue non commercially endorsed YM. without medical.

Of course rules.
Rules may have changed.

 

[Venus1]

Is your unaided eyesight really that bad? My interpretation, based on my understanding of explanations from opticians in the past, is that 6/60 means you can read at 6m what a 'normal' person can read at 60m. That would imply very strong glasses. If you chat to an optician it may not turn out to be as bad as you think.

It is true that 6/60 equates to reading at 6m what normal vision reads at 60m - but this degree of impairment does not equate to particularly strong glasses, perhaps surprisingly.

 

[mcaquestion]

Is your unaided eyesight really that bad? …..

Yes. Without glasses I cannot reliable read the single big letter at the top of the chart with either eye. With glasses, no issue.

…
An unaided sight test failure and will possibly be issued a medical with a restriction requiring glasses. After seeing an optition and sending in a full report.
… .

If this option exists then there is no issue but of course I would be a new entrant. I have not seen any requirement for a medical from the RYA side.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Is your unaided eyesight really that bad? My interpretation, based on my understanding of explanations from opticians in the past, is that 6/60 means you can read at 6m what a 'normal' person can read at 60m. That would imply very strong glasses. If you chat to an optician it may not turn out to be as bad as you think.

For most of my life, my unaided vision has been WAY worse than that - I couldn't even read the top letter on the largest chart, though not quite in "What chart" territory!! Around -10 dioptres correction needed; worse in the years before I had cataract surgery. I've qualified for free eye tests my whole life, and could only get satisfactory correction by using contact lenses; glasses gave both spherical and chromatic aberration in all except the centre of my field of view.

I've gone through life knowing that certain professions were barred to me, but fortunately they weren't ones I wanted to do!

 

[lpdsn]

Thanks for the explanation AntarticPilot & Venus1.

MCAQuestion, I guess talking to the RYA is the best bet.

 

[mcaquestion]

...

MCAQuestion, I guess talking to the RYA is the best bet.

In fact I decided to contact the MCA. They responded extremely quickly (a couple of hours ) and helpfully. In summary, failing on that one point would most likely not disqualify me but would likely result in a restriction of some kind.

The key point they made is that failing an item on the test simply means that the doctor cannot issue the cert on the spot, it must go for review.

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[prv]

I've been trying to remember whether I had to do any "unaided" test for my ENG1. I don't recall doing one, only a distance test with my glasses on and the colour-blindness test.

Either way, my uncorrected sight is fairly bad (top two rows, maybe three) but I have no restriction listed on the certificate and the "fit for watchkeeping" box is ticked.

Pete

 

[laika]

I've been trying to remember whether I had to do any "unaided" test for my ENG1. I don't recall doing one, only a distance test with my glasses on and the colour-blindness test.

The doctor who examined me last seemed surprised that she could find no unaided requirement. Especially weird since following the OP highlighting the 6/60 requirement (which I do meet) I see it's definitely there. Maybe it fell out of the guidance notes for a while? My last ENG1 exam was late 2015.

 

[prv]

The doctor who examined me last seemed surprised that she could find no unaided requirement. Especially weird since following the OP highlighting the 6/60 requirement (which I do meet) I see it's definitely there. Maybe it fell out of the guidance notes for a while? My last ENG1 exam was late 2015.

The OP’s quoting the ML5 text, though. There isn’t any obvious logic for that to be more restrictive than the ENG1, but who knows where government bureaucracy is concerned?

Pete

 

[laika]

The OP’s quoting the ML5 text, though.

Should have mentioned that I googled it and everything I found had 6/60 unaided, e.g.:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/613114/MSN_1839.pdf