Poll - Best Windvane Self-steering system ?

[Blueboatman]

This question comes up quite a lot. Clearly the searchengine is not delivering the goods.
Fwiw I have installed and used extensively Haslar, Hydrovand and Monitor. And sailed with Aries. And built a ( modesty aside here) very good aux rudder/trim tab/one with which I did a trouble free trip to the windies and up to Canada and lots of v light airs sailing. So 'we' can assume that I know enough to give a someways meaningful answer....which is that they are all excellent Seriously

Friends ( plural) swear by Peter Forthmans Pacific ones too. And he has conscientiously been at it for a long time now, they must be tweaked to exemplary spec by now..

Unless buying new I think it rather depends what is available and how long the OP is prepared to wait?

 

[KellysEye]

>The Hydrovane is unique in the way it works which gives it both disadvantages and in some circumstances, some advantages over other types.

The only disadvantage I've ever heard is you can't lift the rudder. We never needed to lift it so I can't see the disadvantage. Two advantages are the rudder is big enough to use as an emergency rudder and there are no steering lines led to the cockpit.

Also, I don't know if it is the same now, but we have seen two Aries locked solid because of use of dissimilar metals. So if you have one keep a good lookout for corrosion and fix it.

 

[macd]

The only disadvantage I've ever heard is you can't lift the rudder. We never needed to lift it so I can't see the disadvantage.

You would if you'd ever boffed it on a quay/ballast. Horses for courses, as Tim Bennet wrote.

. Two advantages are the rudder is big enough to use as an emergency rudder and there are no steering lines led to the cockpit.

Advantageous to many, but by no means unique to the Hydrovane.

 

[TimBennet]

The only disadvantage I've ever heard is you can't lift the rudder

Other people might consider having to go aft to alter course, a lack of power for some applications because it's not a servo pendulum, and a lack of yaw damping in quartering seas might also be disadvantages.

Therefore people considering a windvane should really research the subject and choose a system that best suits their needs. They are not all the same, although as someone said, they do all largely work well enough.

Then, having made a logical, clinical and totally objective decision, throw it away and do what someone else also suggested; buy whatever appears as an irresistible bargain on eBay. (with the caveat that old, corroded, outdated versions do appear there along with the bargains).

 

[BrianReynolds]

Very happy with Windpilot pacific plus, Servo pendulum. has its own rudder (emergency), no lines to the (centre) cockpit. A great piece of kit. Excellent support from Peter Forthmane the designer and manufacturer.
Brian

 

[Gargleblaster]

So I have a conundrum. Perhaps peeps here will help solve it.....

I have managed to acquire both a Navik and a Sea Feather, both used, and neither yet fitted to my 27' long-keeler with reverse counter.

Which one should I sell?

Navik's have failed boats twice on the Jester Challengers. In 2006 a Warsash OD had to retire to the Azores with a failed Navik that was not possible to fix at sea. In 2011 [Red Admiral was completing the 2010 challenge] a Contessa 26 had to hand steer the last 300 miles when the Navik windvane steering failed.

Only 1 Sea Feather has made it to the US in the Jester Challengers as far as I am aware on an Albin Vega, but that may be because they are not as popular amongst Jester Challengers as some other systems. Home built have a good record ;-).

 

[TimBennet]

Navik's have failed boats twice on the Jester Challengers.

Have you got any idea which bit failed? Was it one of the connectors? The connecting rod? Was the person who couldn't fix it, carrying any spares?

It's hard to think of any parts that could break that wouldn't be fixable at sea if some spares were carried.

 

[Gargleblaster]

Have you got any idea which bit failed? Was it one of the connectors? The connecting rod? Was the person who couldn't fix it, carrying any spares?

It's hard to think of any parts that could break that wouldn't be fixable at sea if some spares were carried.

No idea what failed. All I know is that in both cases they could not be fixed at sea. Red Admiral's owner inhabits the Jester Challenge forum as CO256 [or some number] and could probably tell you what failed on his. He did come back from Newport so I presume he was able to fix it in port.

I suppose the question always comes down to how many spares can you carry? In my mind if it can't be fixed with either araldite, gaffer tape or WD40 it's not worth fixing.

 

[michael_w]

I've been shipmates with 3 different gears on 4 boats.

The Albin Ballad and later my Contessa 33 (not 32!) had the same Monitor unit fitted. Once set up and tuned it worked remarkably well. With the Ballad, whilst saiing double handed, we missed winning a RORC race, our class and overall by 40 seconds. The Monitor steered, and we trimmed the kite like demons.

The unit was then fitted to the Contessa for more double handed racing and a two year Atlantic Circuit, on which it never missed a beat.

I've sailed a season on a S&S Swan 40, which had a Pacific Plus. Reasonable gear, but poor in light conditions, it needs 4 kts of boatspeed and 10kts of wind to perform. The basic construction using bushes rather than bearings doesn't help. It acquired the nickname, The Sulky Hun.

My current boat, a long fin and skeg 37' came fitted with a Hydrovane. After 20,000 miles my views are: The basic problem is that getting the wind alone to turn an auxillary rudder means it isn't very poweful. It's especialy poor in a quartering sea, as the rudder doesn't have the strength to keep her running straight. Forget setting a spinnaker.

The Mickey Mouse way the rudder is attached means manouvering in a tight marina is fraught as it can't be lifted out of the water, unlike a pendulum servo gear.

Also, the people who sell it aren't very nice to deal with. I had extensive corespondence with them about the Hydrovane's poor performance. They reccomended that a new larger rudder and a suitably strengthend shaft was the answer. Many phototgraphs and accurate measurements were taken.

When the new parts arrived, it was obvious that they were never going to fit.
When I queried this, they said "Oh you must have the 1.25" shaft, it won't fit"
Also, the new rudder was badly warped.

At first they refused to take the stuff back, "you ordered it, we supplied" they said. They changed thir tune when I pointed it out it was their boss that specified the alterations in the first place. Nevertheless, they refused to refund my not inconsiderable shipping costs to and from Florida.

All in all, if I wasn't selling my boat, I'd remove the hydrovane and flog it to some unsuspecting mug and fit a Monitor.

Sorry for waffling on.

 

[TimBennet]

. . . I suppose the question always comes down to how many spares can you carry?

But 50 Euro's worth of spares that weigh a couple of ounces has got to worth it for a piece of kit that's mission critical on a singlehanded crossing, surely?

 

[Nicholas123]

But 50 Euro's worth of spares that weigh a couple of ounces has got to worth it for a piece of kit that's mission critical on a singlehanded crossing, surely?

But are they mission critical when many of the original single handers that sailed around the world made them themselves & there are video's on youtube that show you can rig your boat to sail itself with just tiller wires & lines to the boom?

I ask this not to be obstructive but because before long I expect I will be trying to fit some sort of home made self steering gear to my latest boat,a Macwester 27 (home made because I cannot afford the astronomical amounts these new age devices cost (along with fancy anchors) & because I want to understand it myself & would no doubt get great satisfaction from it).

 

[macd]

Michael_w: thanks for an informative post. Could you just confirm that you were referring to the Windpilot Pacific Plus on the Swan 40, i.e. the one with it's own rudder driven by gears from the servo oar?

 

[Boo2]

I've been shipmates with 3 different gears on 4 boats.
...snip...
Sorry for waffling on.

Not at all, that's a great post and exactly the kind of stuff I want to hear.

Thanks,

Boo2

 

[TimBennet]

But are they mission critical when many of the original single handers that sailed around the world made the systems themselves . . . or rigged their boat to sail itself with just tiller wires & lines to the boom?

Is a self steering system essential (mission critical) if you're are going to sail long distances singlehanded? Well, there are some boats that will sail themselves with the wind forward of the beam with either the helm lashed or simply left. There are also boats that will sail themselves on a run with the sheets brought to the helm, especially on boats rigged with a twizzle rig. It was these qualities that were good enough for the early singlehanded sailors to do long crossings, especially in the trades.

But I have yet to find any boat that will sail consistently well with a big quartering sea on a broad reach with only a 'sheet to helm' arrangement. I spent the 70's meandering around the oceans believing there was some magic combination of catapult elastic, frictionless blocks and critical tension etc that would work. I never did find it and often got very, very tired hand steering for days.

But does a self steering system have to be a 'factory' bought model? Certainly not and some like the Sea Feather are still in effect 'home made' in the sense that they haven't had their manufacture streamlined with the production of castings or mouldings.

However, whether you build it yourself or buy one, it should either be absolutely bomb proof or field fixable. A knowledge of 'sheet to helm' techniques might help if your system proves to be neither, but in my experience, they aren't really a viable alternative in all situations.

 

[fishermantwo]

But are they mission critical when many of the original single handers that sailed around the world made them themselves & there are video's on youtube that show you can rig your boat to sail itself with just tiller wires & lines to the boom?

I ask this not to be obstructive but because before long I expect I will be trying to fit some sort of home made self steering gear to my latest boat,a Macwester 27 (home made because I cannot afford the astronomical amounts these new age devices cost (along with fancy anchors) & because I want to understand it myself & would no doubt get great satisfaction from it).

I think you may need to peruse this forum.

http://www.cruisenews.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=62

Its populated by manufacturers and home build enthusiasts of windvanes. I'm Ramona on that forum. My latest creation is similar to a Monitor but with improvements. Plenty of photos and links there.

The costs involved are low but the labour is intensive and its easy to see where the cost of these items comes from. Fortunately with the web items such as bevel gears and bearings are readily available and cheap.

 

[Kelpie]

I ask this not to be obstructive but because before long I expect I will be trying to fit some sort of home made self steering gear to my latest boat,a Macwester 27 (home made because I cannot afford the astronomical amounts these new age devices cost (along with fancy anchors) & because I want to understand it myself & would no doubt get great satisfaction from it).

It needn't cost the earth. We wouldn't have been able to justify buying our Navik if it hadn't been a cheap deal on eBay.
Of course, you get what you pay for sometimes... it transpired that major components of our Navik were missing, and it was only through a very genuine and helpful seller combined with a good owners network (VAGB) that we were able to source/repair/fabricate everything to get the Navik up and running properly.

 

[Nicholas123]

Thanks for your replies gents.I was absolutely gobsmacked by just how well my current boat sailed herself on all points of sailing when I brought her back from Belgium recently so will be looking at the lines to the tiller method shown on youtube when I get round to it.
(it even sailed better than I or the autohelm could manage on some occasions).
Failing that I can see myself looking into this subject & trying to hang something off the transom because this is fascinating.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I thought when I saw this topic that it would just develop into a poll of what readers had fitted to their own boats and to some extent it is but there have also been some useful contributions from people who have experience of more than one make. The contributions on which have done well in races is interesting too.
I suppose it's not an item of equipment that is likely to have an official PBO magazine test any time soon due to the limited number of boats that have them fitted.

 

[Tranona]

There has been a review quite recently, and periodically over the years in both PBO and YM. However, not really a "test" for the reasons you mention. Comments, just as in this thread rely on individuals' experiences with their own boats and setups, which may or may not translate to your boat. Also you rarely hear any significant negative feedback - although you would if you asked for my comments on the QM system I once had fitted to my boat! However that is probably irrelevant because nobody would consider using one these days.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Tranona, you're right there was a very recent review in YW.

No-power steering
Aug 2012 p86-89 (4.00 pages)
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