Plywood power-cat that also sails?

[LONG_KEELER]

That's decided then.

You need an AC 75 and you won't even need an engine.

I believe there was an event held in New Zealand recently ,and there maybe two or three going cheap.

 

[crewman]

Have a look at the Swallow yachts Coast 250. Takes a large outboard to give planing speed under power, yet still sails reasonably. It has been tested by various mags and there are videos on Youtube. Its new so unlikely any available on the second hand market, but does show the compromises needed.

 

[Neeves]

Its an interesting intellectual exrcise.

Something comfortable to live in, fast whatever the conditions (within reason)

Jonathan

 

[TernVI]

I'm not even going to bother telling you what my friends and the local sailing community think of those "things".

I won't bother saying what racing boat owners are likely to say about your boat.

Sailing is a 'broad church'.
A boat is a good boat if it's being enjoyed.

All sorts of people enjoy various aspects of sailing and boats are diverse to reflect that.
However, there are good reasons why some genres have not fluorished.
I have known someone with a McGregor, he got good use out of it for a few years then moved on.
I think he bought a bigger stink boat and a racing dinghy.

Before people buy their first yacht, I think they often have ideas about what sailing they are going to do, things often develop in different directions, I thought I would race much more than I do, and do more short trips. Turns out I prefer the racing in smaller boats and I prefer to go further, less often.
I suspect the perceived advantages of a 30knot top speed in flat water might end up not being very relevant to most boat owners who want a sailing boat?

I've owned a few RIBs, the fuel consumption can be an issue, even if it's not really driving the overall costs of boating. Spending over £50 on fuel is something you notice after a mediocre few hours on the water.

 

[ribdriver]

Have you looked at Sailing Catamarans - Home

(Woods designs)?

 

[wombat88]

Down in the bargain basement where I dwell a nutter I knew had a Hirondelle (I think). Sailed well and jolly cheap.

Later he chopped the back around so that he could fit an evil 40hp two stroke. It went fast and was a lot of fun but the spray from the two bows tended to down one's neck.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm not even going to bother telling you what my friends and the local sailing community think of those "things".

Why would their opinion matter? Is it anything more than snobbery? As far as I'm concerned, if it floats and gives pleasure it's a good boat. Even rafts. Sorry, catamarans.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I won't bother saying what racing boat owners are likely to say about your boat.

Sailing is a 'broad church'.
A boat is a good boat if it's being enjoyed.

All sorts of people enjoy various aspects of sailing and boats are diverse to reflect that.
However, there are good reasons why some genres have not fluorished.
I have known someone with a McGregor, he got good use out of it for a few years then moved on.
I think he bought a bigger stink boat and a racing dinghy.

Before people buy their first yacht, I think they often have ideas about what sailing they are going to do, things often develop in different directions, I thought I would race much more than I do, and do more short trips. Turns out I prefer the racing in smaller boats and I prefer to go further, less often.
I suspect the perceived advantages of a 30knot top speed in flat water might end up not being very relevant to most boat owners who want a sailing boat?

I've owned a few RIBs, the fuel consumption can be an issue, even if it's not really driving the overall costs of boating. Spending over £50 on fuel is something you notice after a mediocre few hours on the water.

I have looked at a few McGreggors, including the planing variety. Overwhelmingly, they are bought by people who are new to sailing and who are often afraid of that "sail thing. No matter what the company may claim, they are, IMHO, not suitable for open water for a number of reasons and the general level of constructions seems, well, how best to put it: delicate. Don't let that cabin fool you: it has all the cozy appeal of being locked up inside a refrigerator. As far as any performance is concerned: they have to be very lightly loaded to either plane (under power) or even make way under sail. This kind of precludes any meaningful idea of using that lovely cabin for cruising in.

As an intellectual exercise I have seen a few projects along the McGreggor line, but no matter, in the end the concept does seem rather alien in that it somehow misses the point of what sailing is about, at least to me and many others of my acquaintance. As others have pointed out: if you need to be somewhere fast to go sailing, tow it behind a car. This is also the safest way for a McGreggor to cross open water: on a trailer and on a ferry.

I am well aware of the inherent limitations of my own type of craft (in terms of racing performance), but we could discuss that in more detail after the next miserably wet summer or some brisk out-of-season cruising in northern climes, not to mention the fact that, unlike so many of the poor souls who like to sing the praises of their performance boats on this forum, my wife still likes to come sailing with me and that for several months each year, rain or shine.

 

[rotrax]

Exactly.

We were asked by Jonic of this parish to assist a couple who were considering a boat like ours - a heavy, fat and slow motor sailer. Their previous boat had been a full on Ocean Racer and they were very experienced in offshore events.

A daunting prospect. In all but ideal conditions they sail like a brick. They dont turn or manouvre well and have a sluggish helm.

We told them what we liked about it, told them of the drawbacks, and then a couple of good features.

All sail handling via an electric winch and under a roof in the rear cockpit. Fully enclosed steering position with great visibility all round. Twin helm seats. Island bed in the main cabin. Two huge fridges, 900 litres of fuel giving 1000 NM's on engine alone, large galley and good food prep area. Huge battery capacity for a series production vessel. Large water capacity.

They jumped, and love it.

Like us, they found as age creeps on, creature comforts become more desirable and in fact, to keep First Mate sailing in the way we do, neccessary.

Horses for courses.

On our 650 NM delivery trip from Gloucester Docks a fellow club member, a busy delivery crew when oppertunity arose, joined us.

He was quite scathing about our - in his words - 'Fat old Tub'.

30 hours later, rounding Lands End in pissing rain and poor visibility dressed in tee shirt and shorts he became an almost instant devotee. ?

Jay Leno was asked what his favourite motorcycle was by a journalist. Jay Leno has a fabulous collection of both cars and motorbikes.

His answer converts to boats - " It is the one I am riding when asked that question. "

Ergo, all boats are good, some are better than others for specific purposes.

All, are very clearly, a compromise.

 

[dancrane]

Thank you gentlemen, for carefully considering an optimistic question, and for providing detailed answers and avenues for research. This forum really is a great resource.

Another nocturnal ramble...my goalposts are now moving up, down, backwards and sideways.

I did say it was an idle, late-night thought, didn't I? I wasn't set on a multihull, or ply, and I'm not sure speed matters either, now.

What I'm looking for a solution to, is the broadly accepted second-bestness of 'auxiliary' power aboard sailing yachts.

I may have been exposed to an unrealistically high proportion of smoky, harsh, undependable, deafening old engines, than accurately reflects the refinement of the modern diesel. But there are thousands of those old oilers out there, in the boats I can afford.

I find that owners of old yachts (old as in tatty, not classic) accept intrusive noise and rattle because the auxiliary is basically vital, and has been a godsend at times, and because it would be too much bother to make it less harsh, and unthinkably costly to replace. So it becomes "the old devil" or something less polite...a sort of uncivilised friend-in-need that he loves to hate.

But, because it is temperamental and wretchedly noisy and can vibrate coffee out of a half-filled mug, it is always turned off as soon as sailing is remotely possible, even if sailing will be slow, arduous, or sets back the passage plan inconveniently. The skipper has allowed himself to start pretending to be a purist about sailing, and propagates that nonsense despite the real reason.

If we buy a boat to enjoy being aboard, I reckon every minute should be terrific. Sailing is fabulous, until the moment it becomes unrewarding or comfortless or hazardous, at which point motoring should be far more fun than sailing, not a runner-up prize.

So...I still want a motor-sailer, because I don't plan to emigrate anywhere that rewards having only an outside helm...

...and on reflection I don't need to hare along, pulling skiers; but if I'm going to enjoy long hours under power, I want to be able to sit at the indoor helm with the boat going 7 knots, without having to raise my voice to talk to SWMBO in the saloon.

I think poor engine refinement makes many yachts much less universally fun than they could have been.

I keep reminding myself, it's not worth buying a yacht, till I'm certain I won't wish it was as good as I'd hoped.

I've had plenty of day-trips as deckhand, finding out what I don't want. ?

 

[penfold]

Have you ever considered golf? You don't seem to like boating very much.

 

[Laminar Flow]

If we buy a boat to enjoy being aboard, I reckon every minute should be terrific. Sailing is fabulous, until the moment it becomes unrewarding or comfortless or hazardous, at which point motoring should be far more fun than sailing, not a runner-up prize.

I think you might be putting yourself under too much pressure with that level of expectation.


...and on reflection I don't need to hare along, pulling skiers; but if I'm going to enjoy long hours under power, I want to be able to sit at the indoor helm with the boat going 7 knots, without having to raise my voice to talk to SWMBO in the saloon.

Just a few points to think about:
Above a relative speed of 0.9 the resistance of a displacement craft rises exponentially. For example: at a relative speed of 0.9 (4.8kts) the resistance of my Colvic Watson 32 is 54kg, at a relative speed of 1.13 or 6kts the resistance rises to 94kg which is 74% more, at hull speed or 1.34 kts relative speed (7.12kts) the resistance is 205kg or four times that of the boat doing 4.8kts.
At a leisurely 1500 rpm we travel at 5.5kts and this is our normal cruising speed. At this speed we use about 1.9 ltr/hr. At 2400 rpm, or 80% of engine capacity, we can do about 7.5kts and this at over 4 times the fuel consumption.

To travel equally economical and at 7kts with the boat of your choice it would have to have a DWL of 46'.

Lastly, we always look forward to switching off the engine, simply because we enjoy sailing more; there is something miraculous about a boat moving along silently by the power of the wind. In 7kts true wind speed we do 5.8kts on a close reach and are already exceeding our cruising speed under power. The same goes for making way in light conditions off the wind: here we set the chute and in we can easily improve progress from dawdling along at 3 kts to doing 5kts or better.
That said, it is not a bank breaking exercise nor particularly difficult to sound proof an engine room if you prefer that mode of propulsion.
.

 

[dancrane]

You don't seem to like boating very much.

I like all the bits I like.

But there's plenty not to like, considering the cost. Maybe I'm the odd one out - are yachtsmen meant to relish laying out tens of thousands on dated and limited designs? And if anyone is dissatisfied, they must be a closet-golfer? ?

What Laminar Flow has done to the sailplan of his sturdy old Colvic, shows what the original design lacked, and I think it draws attention to the way most boat-buyers simply don't question the design. Maybe the original Colvic design was spot-on, and their buyers specifically did not want their boats to sail any better than they did...

...but much more likely, they idly accepted what they thought was an inevitable compromise. Me, I'm very glad that Laminar has had the skills and time and determination to see what the hull can do, given a decent rig.

But in this thread I was looking at increasing versatility, by making the unavoidable motor miles we tally, no less enjoyable than good sailing. With a really quiet, smooth engine, I'd enjoy calms, foul tides, river miles and extended upwind passages, happily treating the boat like a motor-cruiser without regret or disappointment. That's choice - but how many can say they have it?

Perhaps it really is all down to better soundproofing.

I'd put Laminar Flow in charge of finding how it can be improved ...very few designers seem to have given it any thought.