How to trip outboard end of spi pole first?

[kirky1]

Hello there
I crew on a First 44.7, at the front we use a symmetrical spi with sheet and guys. I've read in several places that when gybing you should trip the outboard end of the pole first, and then the inboard end.

How is this possible when the angle of the guy is down towards the deck and the pole jaws are facing up? I'd be really grateful is someone could assist on how you do this..

Thanks in advance, Kirk

 

[sarabande]

Where is the guy led to ? Near the shrouds or back aft ?

Single 'dip' pole operation, or using twin poles ?

 

[kirky1]

Where is the guy led to ? Near the shrouds or back aft ?

Single 'dip' pole operation, or using twin poles ?

Hi Sarabade
We use end to end gybe, the guy is led to a block near the shrouds.
I sail on another smaller boat on which we have a similard set up except we just have sheets only which are also led to a blocks near the shrouds.

On both boats the line from the outboard end to the shrouds is on a downward angle. If the jaws are up how can you trip the outboard end first? I don't think its possible.

Thanks, Kirk

 

[ridgy]

End to end on a 44 footer...rather you than me.

I would try dipping the pole, when the pole uphaul is eased then the pole should just fall away when the release is triggered.

Otherwise see the other thread with the advice to rotate the pole during the release.

 

[tat27]

when gybing, ideally the topping lift is dropped a foot or 3 when the call for trip is made; the opening of the jaws should coincide with the pole end dropping and the guy under pressure will help to pull the sheet out of the jaws.

 

[Laser310]

also - it seems you are doing end-for-end gybes with both sheets and guys.

I think this is a great technique - especially on say mid-sized boats.., boats where the chute is big enough that you want both sheets and guys.., but not so big that you really need to go with a dip-pole gybe.

certainly gybes can be faster end-for-end than with dip pole, and you don't need extra weight on the bow.

but i wonder if at ~45ft, you aren't really in dip-pole territory...

do you at least have a carbon pole?

 

[kirky1]

also - it seems you are doing end-for-end gybes with both sheets and guys.

I think this is a great technique - especially on say mid-sized boats.., boats where the chute is big enough that you want both sheets and guys.., but not so big that you really need to go with a dip-pole gybe.

certainly gybes can be faster end-for-end than with dip pole, and you don't need extra weight on the bow.

but i wonder if at ~45ft, you aren't really in dip-pole territory...

do you at least have a carbon pole?

Hi there

The pole is carbon, it protrudes about 2 feet past the forestay so would have to be increased out of reach on the mast if we dip pole gybed. I'm not saying we shouldn't dip pole, I'm open to it. End for end has been working okay.

 

[flaming]

Hi there

The pole is carbon, it protrudes about 2 feet past the forestay so would have to be increased out of reach on the mast if we dip pole gybed. I'm not saying we shouldn't dip pole, I'm open to it. End for end has been working okay.

Kirky,

There is a lot that's not making sense here. Is this definitely a 44.7, and that wasn't a typo? What you're describing re the pole setup matches what I've seen on a 34.7. But would be very odd for a 44.7.

If it really is a 44.7, then you 100% definitely need to dip pole. You should have a track on the mast for the inboard end of the pole, not just a hoop, so the being "out of reach on the mast" wouldn't apply as you'd use the tackle to raise the inboard end high enough for the outboard end to clear the forestay during the gybe. If you don't have a track on the mast, and it really is a 44.7... Someone's added a pole on the cheap, frankly a setup like that on a 45 foot boat is dangerous. Far, far too much load at the inboard end of the pole for a bowman to be messing about with during a gybe. Fail to get the sequence exactly right and you will hurt someone.

If it's a 34.7, then either is possible, end for end probably slightly preferred.
Answering your original question on the assumption that we're actually talking about a 34.7...
The key here is the helm and the timing of the gybe. If the gybe is a good one, you should find that the guy wants to rise out of the pole when it's tripped. If it doesn't the guys at the back of the boat have made a mess of it.

The sequence should go - helm starts to bear away, pole down is eased and the guy wound back. The trimmer takes the slack in the lazy sheet. The kite should naturally rotate to windward. The helm calls "trip" and the guy trimmer releases the guy, passing the load to the new sheet. Simultaneously the bowman trips the outboard end of the pole and then quickly the inboard end and puts the new guy in the jaws before passing the pole across the boat and clipping the end onto the mast again. Calling "made" then they do, which is the signal for the guy trimmer to take up the slack, after which the trimmer can ease the old sheet and concentrate on the new sheet.

If you're trying to get the guy out of the pole when the pole is still under compression loading it isn't going to work, as it sounds like you have discovered. And it's not the bowman's fault, it's the fault of the back of the bus guys.
I say this as a driver btw....

 

[Laser310]

f you're trying to get the guy out of the pole when the pole is still under compression loading it isn't going to work, as it sounds like you have discovered. And it's not the bowman's fault, it's the fault of the back of the bus guys.

end-for-end with _both_ sheets and guys is easier than end-for-end with just sheets - the normal way to do end=for-end.

the old guy can be _completely_ unloaded, by taking the load on the new sheet - there should be no problem getting the guy out, as it should have no load no matter what the driver does - within reason...

i do agree that dip pole is probably the way to go for a 45ft boat

 

[flaming]

end-for-end with _both_ sheets and guys is easier than end-for-end with just sheets - the normal way to do end=for-end.

the old guy can be _completely_ unloaded, by taking the load on the new sheet - there should be no problem getting the guy out, as it should have no load no matter what the driver does - within reason...

i do agree that dip pole is probably the way to go for a 45ft boat

Oh for sure, end for end with sheets and guys is how we sail. My point is that if the guy isn't coming out then it's normally because the pole is still under compression, which one way or another is the fault of the back of the bus, either by not swapping the load to the sheet or by bad driving, not the poor sap pulling the trip line...

 

[Laser310]

Oh for sure, end for end with sheets and guys is how we sail. My point is that if the guy isn't coming out then it's normally because the pole is still under compression, which one way or another is the fault of the back of the bus, either by not swapping the load to the sheet or by bad driving, not the poor sap pulling the trip line...

i guess if he can't get it off the mast that might be the problem...

but the way i understood it is that he gets it off the mast fine.., but then can't get the old guy to drop out of the jaw. Once the pole is off the mast, there should be no load on anything

 

[flaming]

i guess if he can't get it off the mast that might be the problem...

but the way i understood it is that he gets it off the mast fine.., but then can't get the old guy to drop out of the jaw. Once the pole is off the mast, there should be no load on anything

Sounds like he's (wisely in my opinion) trying to drop the guy out of the pole first. Before tripping the pole from the mast. It should fall out fine if there is no load, but stay where it is if there is compression on the pole.

If I was doing bow and in any doubt about the ability of the back of the bus, I would always try and trip the outer end first, tripping the inboard end when there is still load on the pole is a sure fire way to either stab the pole through the main, or yourself.

 

[kirky1]

Hi guys thanks for your input

The boat is a 45footer, no typo.

Normally our procedure is just before pole comes off I wait until the active guy is slack (tension on tack taken up by sheet). The means the pole comes off easily. This is how it should work but sometimes if there's new crew on board, somebody is daydreaming etc there's still tension on the guy and therefore the pole.

So if I can get the active guy out of the outboard end of the pole, it doesn't matter what is going on at the back, I can safely get the pole of the mast.

The point is that the jaws are facing up and the guy is pointing down so everything is against me getting the outboard end of the pole away from the guy, regardless of where its under tension or not.

 

[Laser310]

The point is that the jaws are facing up and the guy is pointing down so everything is against me getting the outboard end of the pole away from the guy, regardless of where its under tension or not.

try rotating it

 

[kirky1]

try rotating it

Thanks Laser, rotating it is a great idea when the inboard end is off, but when the inboard end is attached to the mast you cannot rotate the pole

 

[flaming]

Hi guys thanks for your input

The boat is a 45footer, no typo.

Then my main point is to switch to dip pole gybing. That is simply much too big a boat to be messing about with end for end. We dip-poled on a 37 footer...

Normally our procedure is just before pole comes off I wait until the active guy is slack (tension on tack taken up by sheet). The means the pole comes off easily. This is how it should work but sometimes if there's new crew on board, somebody is daydreaming etc there's still tension on the guy and therefore the pole.

So if I can get the active guy out of the outboard end of the pole, it doesn't matter what is going on at the back, I can safely get the pole of the mast.

The point is that the jaws are facing up and the guy is pointing down so everything is against me getting the outboard end of the pole away from the guy, regardless of where its under tension or not.

In all honesty.... Something else is going on here, as if the boat is nicely downwind then this simply isn't an issue you should have as the pole will not be in compression. If the kite is trimmed properly with the boat sailing downwind rather than a bit hot then the pole should be being lifted in any sort of breeze. Opening the jaws should allow the guy to just pop up and away if there is any tension on it. If there's no tension then it shouldn't matter as you say.

 

[kirky1]

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