90/180 days

[jacaldo]

The rules are simple. EU immigration holds the 3rd country traveler responsible for providing proof. There is only one type of proof. That is an EU stamp, either in or out. You are responsible for getting the requisite stamps. A stamp by UK immigration has no validity in the EU. It is not accepted as proof, neither are receipts, paid parking fines or any other type of 3rd party document.

As I said earlier, my entry stamp is unreadable, my exit stamp could also be unreadable. What happens then, do people check their stamps in front of the border official? "No I'm sorry I can't read that, will you stamp it again, thanks that's better"
It's been a couple of years since travelling out of Europe so I've been back and had a look at past stamps, most of them unreadable too.
So do the border officials actually look at the stamps or do they use some kind of database?

 

[BurnitBlue]

?

The Schengen Database doesn't include a register border crossings. From Wikipedia:
"The type of data about people kept in SIS includes: requests for extradition; undesirability of presence in particular territory; minor age; mental illnesses; missing person status; a need for protection; requests by a judicial authority; and suspected of crime. The SIS also keeps data referring to lost, stolen and misappropriated firearms, identity documents, motor vehicles and banknotes."

The automated smart border functionality will come about when Entry/Exit System is fully implemented. The EU commission FAQ on EES states it is due in Q1 2022 and that it will replace Passport Stamps for 3rd country nationals. So until it's live, Passport Stamps are still required.

Entry-Exit-System - Wikipedia

Does anyone have an idea of the procedure that may be implemented in 2022 to monitore 3rd party nationals who are permanent residents of a Schengen State. Your link just describes the external border crossings of 3rd country citizens. Actually this will apply to everyone entering or leaving Schengan either EU Citizens, 3rd country citizens or 3rd country residents of a member state.

When I was reading up on the Golden visa on another thread I did notice that some lawyers "assisting" appications for Golden visa, not all but some, actually promised that successful applicants for the Golden visa will have full 365 day access to all other member states. Do they know something we dont't know?

It would certainly simplyfy the present confusion if residents were granted the exact same conditions in the rest of Schengan that their resident Schengan state allows them. I reckon that they might do this because it would remove the need to make seperate and complicated procedures to log them crossing internal borders. I am not sure but does the USA for instance allow a resident to spend the time in Texas or any state for the duration of the resident time allowed. Not sure if they even have a permanent resident thing without a citizen procedure. When I last had a visa in USA it was for 6 month multiple visits. A quick day in the Bahamas, mexico or Canada reset the clock.

 

[Graham376]

When I was reading up on the Golden visa on another thread I did notice that some lawyers "assisting" appications for Golden visa, not all but some, actually promised that successful applicants for the Golden visa will have full 365 day access to all other member states. Do they know something we dont't know?

We've had this discussion several times. According to correspondence I've had from EU, a resident travelling as family and in company of EU citizen spouse/partner allows 365 travel, otherwise 90/180. Completed residence period allows conversion to citizenship so 365 then allowed.

 

[BurnitBlue]

We've had this discussion several times. According to correspondence I've had from EU, a resident travelling as family and in company of EU citizen spouse/partner allows 365 travel, otherwise 90/180. Completed residence period allows conversion to citizenship so 365 then allowed.

And I have agreed with you many times. At the moment it is 90/180 for 3rd country citizens whether they are resident in a Schengen member state or not. But it is an anomoly which I still hope will be rectified in 2022 with the new software approach to stop using passport stamps.

A border without border checks is not really a border. A country without borders is not a country. It is a line in the sand. A resident is allowed to stay in a member state 365. Legally. There are no border checks between member states. The only checked borders are those that are arrival and entry points to non-schengen states. Therefore logic follows that a traveller inside schengen with permission to stay 365 days is in effect as far as the EU is concerned a conglomarate among 26 agreed states to stockade themselves inside a fence of checked outside points of entry. It is well known that the EU wants to remove country identity to in effect produce the equivelant of States in USA or counties in UK. There are no internal border checks in USA or in UK, but each state or county do have entry ports to regulate admission to the group

. In the future there is absolutely no way an individual EU country will continue to believe they have an independent say in the running af the population. Once every member has been forced to join Schengen the EU will have succeeded and non checked borders will dissappear alla USA and UK. Lines in sand. I hope the change comes in 2022. The only thing holding back are the states outside Schengen stopping a unified approach to population control. In my opinion. Like the USA and UK among many others, residence will be a decision of the country not individual areas. In fact that will be the EU which is why I avoid the citizenship route.

 

[Oh_Well]

. In the future there is absolutely no way an individual EU country will continue to believe they have an independent say in the running af the population. Once every member has been forced to join Schengen the EU will have succeeded and non checked borders will dissappear alla USA and UK. Lines in sand. I hope the change comes in 2022. The only thing holding back are the states outside Schengen stopping a unified approach to population control. In my opinion. Like the USA and UK among many others, residence will be a decision of the country not individual areas. In fact that will be the EU which is why I avoid the citizenship route.

With respect, the current Covid pandemic has disproved that. Each individual EU country has been able to control its own borders and stop people from other EU countries entering. I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

 

[st599]

With respect, the current Covid pandemic has disproved that. Each individual EU country has been able to control its own borders and stop people from other EU countries entering. I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

Also, if you ever check in to a hotel in most of the EU, that is registered with the police. In France and some other countries, you have to register long-term guests staying at your house. Many marinas register 3rd country nationals. If I ship goods for work, I can access a system telling me which routes items have taken. I don't think there are no borders, although there are no physical border checks.

 

[Graham376]

I've no idea what may or may not be forwarded by individual countries to a central database although I suspect at the moment they're not connected for people tracing.

When we arrived at Lisbon 2 weeks ago and handed passports over, I was asked for my residence card and my wife for her citizen card although that is still under her maiden name and she travelled on UK passport in married name. Quite obvious we are being tracked here despite no stamps, they know exactly when we come and go and whether residents or not, as no doubt will the new EU wide system next year.

 

[Mistroma]

I've no idea what may or may not be forwarded by individual countries to a central database although I suspect at the moment they're not connected for people tracing.

When we arrived at Lisbon 2 weeks ago and handed passports over, I was asked for my residence card and my wife for her citizen card although that is still under her maiden name and she travelled on UK passport in married name. Quite obvious we are being tracked here despite no stamps, they know exactly when we come and go and whether residents or not, as no doubt will the new EU wide system next year.

Rats, it seems that I have wasted money buying my John Bull Stamping kit and carving some spare stamps out of bits of carrot. It did seem like a fairly bulletproof method of marking my passport in a satisfactory manner. Hacking an EU online database is going to be a little trickier.

 

[Poignard]

With respect, the current Covid pandemic has disproved that. Each individual EU country has been able to control its own borders and stop people from other EU countries entering. I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

Any country wishing to attain membership of the European Union has to fulfil the three conditions of the so-called Copenhagen criteria:

- it must have stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, respect for human rights and the rule of law;

- it must have a functioning market economy;

- it must agree to comply with all the obligations that come with membership of the EU and support its aims.

Since the first of the stated aims of the EU in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (and in other treaties) is "to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe", and given that no country can become a Member State unless it is a democracy, it follows that the objective of ever closer union must, therefore, have been in accordance with the democratically expressed will of the peoples of each Member States.

And since the objective of ever closer union can only, when taken to its logical conclusion, mean what it says, and result in a federation of Member States (a United States of Europe, if you wish to call it that), it is unarguable that the democratic will of the citizens of the EU is for that to happen.

Consolidated version of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (legislation.gov.uk)

[Note for moderators;
What I have written above is, and is intended to be, purely a statement of historical fact. I am not expressing any political opinions of mine and, since it is history, it cannot be said to be a discussion current affairs.]

 

[BurnitBlue]

With respect, the current Covid pandemic has disproved that. Each individual EU country has been able to control its own borders and stop people from other EU countries entering. I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

I agree, covid has put a spoke in the EU wheel. But the return to border control by individual countries was against EU policy. It was not only Covid. The migration crises is still a reason for countries to take back control. On another thread I claimed that if this trend continues these countries will also tske back their own 90/180 allowance for their own tourist trade.

 

[jordanbasset]

I agree, covid has put a spoke in the EU wheel. But the return to border control by individual countries was against EU policy.

Point of fact it was specifically allowed for in EU Policies/rules/laws.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Any country wishing to attain membership of the European Union has to fulfil the three conditions of the so-called Copenhagen criteria:

- it must have stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, respect for human rights and the rule of law;

- it must have a functioning market economy;

- it must agree to comply with all the obligations that come with membership of the EU and support its aims.

Since the first of the stated aims of the EU in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (and in other treaties) is "to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe", and given that no country can become a Member State unless it is a democracy, it follows that the objective of ever closer union must, therefore, have been in accordance with the democratically expressed will of the peoples of each Member States.

And since the objective of ever closer union can only, when taken to its logical conclusion, mean what it says, and result in a federation of Member States (a United States of Europe, if you wish to call it that), it is unarguable that the democratic will of the citizens of the EU is for that to happen.

Consolidated version of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (legislation.gov.uk)

[Note for moderators;
What I have written above is, and is intended to be, purely a statement of historical fact. I am not expressing any political opinions of mine and, since it is history, it cannot be said to be a discussion current affairs.]

I admire your elequence. I wish I could write in a way that states exactly the issues. You make good points about the democratic reasons the EU claims a mandate to stop member states from taking back control of their borders. Covid and Migration took the rug from under the EU.

Regarding 90/180 I think that this is at the heart of liverboard life. The whole of Europe is under the rule that previously applied to 26 individual states. I believe this will not kill off liverboard even for 3rd world countries but it will peel off a large number into a mobile liverboard life more akin to the Long distance yacht cruising of the style made popular by Eric and Susan Hiscock. The problem ix that sort of cruising is a young mans game.

 

[goeasy123]

As I said earlier, my entry stamp is unreadable, my exit stamp could also be unreadable. What happens then, do people check their stamps in front of the border official? "No I'm sorry I can't read that, will you stamp it again, thanks that's better"
It's been a couple of years since travelling out of Europe so I've been back and had a look at past stamps, most of them unreadable too.
So do the border officials actually look at the stamps or do they use some kind of database?

As it happens I was talking to a sailor last week with some experience of this. Due to Covid he was unable to comply with travel rules. On two separate occasions immigration officers went to pains to make the stamp date unreadable. I believe the rules say that the traveler is responsible for keeping a specific record in the form of a stamp. In this case the traveler complied, but immigration failed (on purpose) to allow the subsequent immigration control to act.

I think you should consult with the Greek embassy. They are more likely to have the authority to resolve the situation for you than front line staff.

I agree, covid has put a spoke in the EU wheel. But the return to border control by individual countries was against EU policy. It was not only Covid. The migration crises is still a reason for countries to take back control. On another thread I claimed that if this trend continues these countries will also tske back their own 90/180 allowance for their own tourist trade.

If you read the EU Directive on the matter, long before Covid, it has long said that EU countries can control internal borders in case of public health issues. I think it specifically mentions infectious epidemics. They can also put controls in place in matters of national security... such and illegal immigration.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Point of fact it was specifically allowed for in EU Policies/rules/laws.

It did not seem like that when it was happening. The media reported great agravation from the EU towards those countries that closed their borders.

Still thanks for the links ,I am certainly no expert so I rely on gut feelings and what I read in the press.

Edit. Rules which are made often have get-out routes in the event of a crises. I still say that the policy of the EU is ultimately to remove internal borders. That has not changed but it seems a bit rich to praise the EU when they do fold to a double crises of health and security and so generously allow member states to protect their citizens. It put a spoke in their wheel but eventually, they will reassert their control when these crises are past.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Back to boats and a few liverboard anecdotes. Two liverboard couples boarded their boats today. They launched within hours of arriviing. Never seen this rush before. One boat had two feet of water in their boat after a two year absence of the owners due to covid. They pumped out with the boatyard pump and launched immediately. No sails, no engine test. The helicopters are dipping their buckets into the gulf of amvrikia behind the boatyard. No site of a fire near hear so perhaps the owners were spooked. Those helicopters have no mufflers and they are really loud. Just had an amusing thought that maybe the owners of the waterlogged boat (45 footer) thought the water buckets did it.

Anyway I almost installed the Aries on the stern. The metal became so hot with the heat here I had to stop. It was then I noticed the burns from the aluminion ladder on my legs.

To me right now, the heroes are not the gold medal winners but the firefighters tackling the blaze. How they can stand the ambient heat of 42C and fight a fire wearing the clobber and a helmut is unbeleivable. To me suffering from just the heat and getting annoyed at a hot ladder while wearing a T-shirt and shorts puts me to shame.

 

[nortada]

With respect, the current Covid pandemic has disproved that. Each individual EU country has been able to control its own borders and stop people from other EU countries entering. I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

First, I am sure all participants will join me in me in welcoming you to this forum and a dynamic debate that goes on continuously - Schengen 90/180.

Clearly you have an opinion on this topic, who doesn’t so where do you sit in this - actively involved as a sailor overseas or is an interested party?

As you will have already discovered some have actual experiences to offer but others offer opinion - both are justified.

None of us know what the future offers.

As said before, welcome on board??

 

[Graham376]

I cannot see why individual EU countries would agree to becoming the United States of Europe, particularly after their Covid experience. In any case there never has been a democratic will amongst the citizens of individual EU countries to accept that so its not going to happen

According to two members of the Commission I discussed this with, their ultimate goal is to have a federal Europe with them running it and national governments dealing only with minor local issues.

Typical of the commission, they are threatening legal action to force IIRC 23 nations to institute a particular law against their will. Under a democracy, one would expect if 23 out of 27 countries were against, it would be dropped but, not much chance of that as elected MEPs don't run the place.

 

[Indigoed]

My partner and I travelled from the UK to Greece via Athens airport in May and stayed for a period of 3 weeks whilst we hunted for our boat.

On that occasion we both had our passports stamped on entry and exit and therefore have a record of the three weeks checked into and out of Schengen.

We returned to Greece in July for 5 weeks departing in August. On this occasion we travelled into Preveza Aktio Airport.

Our passports were examined but not stamped on either entry or exit. It looked as if they placed them into a scanner briefly but the check took seconds and was similar to pre-brexit cursory checks.

This appeared to be the case for all the passengers on our UK origin flight.

I do wonder whether there is actually any record of our 5 week stay. My passport would suggest no as there are no stamps and the suggestion is that the IT system to digitally record is not operational until 2022.

Anybody have any knowledge of this?

 

[jonrarit]

And to be honest, I do wonder how rigorously it will be enforced in many EU countries

I thought the same until on the return trip from italy my wife called me from the airport to say they were rigorously checking schengen days on peoples passports. The Japanese couple in the next queue had overstayed and were being hauled up for it.

At that point i checked my days and with only 14 days left, a plan was quickly formed and we set sail for Croatia, checking out the Schengen area with only 6 days remaining..... close call me thinks

 

[dgadee]

You make it sound as though everybody knew exactly what the situation was going to be, back in June 2016. If you had the foresight to predict exactly how Brexit would unfold, well done you. But can I point out that at the time lots of people were going on about remaining in the single market, having a comprehensive deal, a 'Norway for Now' option, etc etc. And some of these people were running the country.

In reality a lot of people don't know what the situation is now, let alone five years ago. And unfortunately this may include border officials in other countries.

Norway does not have free movement.