zip up lifejackets and lifting?

[brman]

I've noticed a few lifejackets (including the often recommended Kru Sports Pro) are zip up with two loops for harness attachment. The implication being that you need to use both and not rely on the strength of zip.

Not a problem for a harness but what happens if you are trying to lift a MOB? I assume they have some sort of lifting becket but I can't see how that works without putting all the load through the zip.

Can anyone enlighten me as to how they work for lifting?

 

[prv]

I assume they have some sort of lifting becket but I can't see how that works without putting all the load through the zip.

The Kru has a lifting strap on each side; you'd need to use both to avoid loading the zip. They're threaded through bits of fabric that present them visibly on the front of the bladder.

Pete

 

[brman]

Thanks Pete,
So what is the view on how practical this is at sea?

My experience of MOB drills is that you are lucky to snag one line while wallowing around in a bit of a sea. Two would definitely be a challenge I could do without.
I guess it would also stop you using a MOB liftesaver?

 

[ShinyShoe]

I've noticed a few lifejackets (including the often recommended Kru Sports Pro) are zip up with two loops for harness attachment. The implication being that you need to use both and not rely on the strength of zip.

Not a problem for a harness but what happens if you are trying to lift a MOB? I assume they have some sort of lifting becket but I can't see how that works without putting all the load through the zip.

Can anyone enlighten me as to how they work for lifting?

Interesting question. I have a Kru Sports Pro. I've never even thought about why there are two D's!

I have only worn it inflated once (a slight error of judgement on a slipway!) I don't think it would come off with the zip undone. The shape is very solid. When I next test it I will have to check.

I guess the loads are likely to be a bit different though >> "harness load" is taking all of me, whatever force knocked me over and the force of water trying to pull me away from the boat.
>> "recovery load" - you are lifting me, perhaps some additional forces of waves etc - but likely you have slowed the boat down a lot.

 

[brman]

Interesting question. I have a Kru Sports Pro. I've never even thought about why there are two D's!

I have only worn it inflated once (a slight error of judgement on a slipway!) I don't think it would come off with the zip undone. The shape is very solid. When I next test it I will have to check.

I guess the loads are likely to be a bit different though >> "harness load" is taking all of me, whatever force knocked me over and the force of water trying to pull me away from the boat.
>> "recovery load" - you are lifting me, perhaps some additional forces of waves etc - but likely you have slowed the boat down a lot.

I agree, in the water then the zip is probably doing very little. It is is really just the recovery loads that worry me. What with sodden clothes, and the jerk of a swell etc I can see the load being many times body weight.
Maybe I should see if Kru customer support will enlighten me.

EDIT: I also think that it is very likely your average crew would just pull you out on what they could find, most people would probably not know they had to find another lifting loop even if they could. Maybe the zip is strong enough for this as I would be surprised if Kru etc hadn't though about this.

 

[Poignard]

I happen to have a Kru Sports Pro in front of me now. It's the type that incorporates a harness. It has a small becket where the back of your neck is but that is for hanging the lifejacket up with. It is not strong enough to lift a casualty with. As you suggest, I think you would need to pass the lifting line through both of the loops at the front. Easy enough to say sitting here in my arm chair but trying to get a frightened person in the water to understand what they have to do might not be so easy. Thanks to your post I will, in future, make sure my crew is briefed about this. :encouragement:

Ps I wonder if there may be a lifting loop that appears when the lifejacket is inflated. However, having just paid ca. £30 to have it re-packed, I'm not going to inflate it to find out!

 

[brman]

I happen to have a Kru Sports Pro in front of me now. It's the type that incorporates a harness. It has a small becket where the back of your neck is but that is for hanging the lifejacket up with. It is not strong enough to lift a casualty with. As you suggest, I think you would need to pass the lifting line through both of the loops at the front. Easy enough to say sitting here in my arm chair but trying to get a frightened person in the water to understand what they have to do might not be so easy. Thanks to your post I will, in future, make sure my crew is briefed about this. :encouragement:

Ps I wonder if there may be a lifting loop that appears when the lifejacket is inflated. However, having just paid ca. £30 to have it re-packed, I'm not going to inflate it to find out!

From what prv says I gather there are two lifting beckets that are visible when the bladder inflates.
Is there not any instructions that come with the jacket? If not I would like to assume that they don't need special treatment - ie only one loop is necessary. That might be a bit of an assumption though.....

 

[Poignard]

From what prv says I gather there are two lifting beckets that are visible when the bladder inflates.
Is there not any instructions that come with the jacket? If not I would like to assume that they don't need special treatment - ie only one loop is necessary. That might be a bit of an assumption though.....

I'll see if I can find the instructions.

 

[brman]

I'll see if I can find the instructions.

That would be great if you can. I have also emailed Ocean Safety to see if they can elaborate.

 

[prv]

I have a Kru Sports Pro. I've never even thought about why there are two D's!

Wat?

Does that mean that when you use it as a harness, you only clip into one of the soft Ds on the front?

Danger, Will Robinson!

I would have thought it was patently obvious that the zip was not meant to bear the same load as the chunky stainless buckle on a more conventional jacket, and that the lanyard carabiner was meant to supply the strength - but I'm also fairly sure it was in the instructions too.

Pete

 

[prv]

I think you would need to pass the lifting line through both of the loops at the front.

You won't be able to find them with the bladder inflated.

Ps I wonder if there may be a lifting loop that appears when the lifejacket is inflated.

YES!

And you need to use both of those too. The load path is essentially a sling from one lifting strap, around the small of your back, to the other.

I suspect that with arms through the jacket, friction between layers, grasping the lifting device, and the (limited) strength of the zip, you probably wouldn't have someone fall right out if you lifted them with only one attachment point. But you'd be putting an unfair strain on things, maybe break part of it, and be on the verge of dropping them.

However, having just paid ca. £30 to have it re-packed, I'm not going to inflate it to find out!

You don't need to fire off the gas cylinder, just unzip it. If you want to see how it ends up when inflated, pump it up via the tube.

Not getting at you specifically, but I confess I'm always a little bemused in threads like this how unfamiliar many people are with their personal equipment. Many wear a lifejacket all the time, and yet seemingly have little idea what's even inside the cover...

Pete

 

[brman]

You won't be able to find them with the bladder inflated.



YES!

And you need to use both of those too. The load path is essentially a sling from one lifting strap, around the small of your back, to the other.

I suspect that with arms through the jacket, friction between layers, grasping the lifting device, and the (limited) strength of the zip, you probably wouldn't have someone fall right out if you lifted them with only one attachment point. But you'd be putting an unfair strain on things, maybe break part of it, and be on the verge of dropping them.



You don't need to fire off the gas cylinder, just unzip it. If you want to see how it ends up when inflated, pump it up via the tube.

Not getting at you specifically, but I confess I'm always a little bemused in threads like this how unfamiliar many people are with their personal equipment. Many wear a lifejacket all the time, and yet seemingly have little idea what's even inside the cover...

Pete

It will get a whole lot worse if the MOB is unconscious and so everything has to be done from up on the heaving deck.....

As to being un-familiar with safety kit, the reasons I am asking about this is I realised I hadn't a clue what most jackets I have used look like when inflated. So yes, you have a point, I suspect an often overlooked point.

 

[Poignard]

(...)

Not getting at you specifically, but I confess I'm always a little bemused in threads like this how unfamiliar many people are with their personal equipment. Many wear a lifejacket all the time, and yet seemingly have little idea what's even inside the cover...

Pete

You are quite right, I really ought to make more of an effort to keep up to date with modern equipment

 

[scottie]

You won't be able to find them with the bladder inflated.

You

YES!

And you need to use both of those too. The load path is essentially a sling from one lifting strap, around the small of your back, to the other.

I suspect that with arms through the jacket, friction between layers, grasping the lifting device, and the (limited) strength of the zip, you probably wouldn't have someone fall right out if you lifted them with only one attachment point. But you'd be putting an unfair strain on things, maybe break part of it, and be on the verge of dropping them.



You don't need to fire off the gas cylinder, just unzip it. If you want to see how it ends up when inflated, pump it up via the tube.

Not getting at you specifically, but I confess I'm always a little bemused in threads like this how unfamiliar many people are with their personal equipment. Many wear a lifejacket all the time, and yet seemingly have little idea what's even inside the cover...

Pete

I don't have a zip up life jacket but if I have to pull someone out the water who is wearing one it helps to know so perhaps you need to be less sarcastic?

 

[brman]

Well, full marks to Ocean Safety. I have already got a response from them. To quote.......

For MOB recovery BOTH lifting beckets should be used. They are tested, in accordance with ISO requirements, to withstand a load of 3200N which equates to around 325KG. On jackets with zip fastening at the centre i.e. “waistcoat” style the use of both beckets together would be a common requirement.

On conventional jackets each becket is tested to withstand 325KG.

So yes, crew training might be necessary!

 

[Poignard]

Well, full marks to Ocean Safety. I have already got a response from them. To quote.......


So yes, crew training might be necessary!

I'm still not clear about what is meant by the "lifting beckets" . What you have just quoted seems to refer to the beckets either side of the zip but prv seems to refer to some that don't appear until the lifejacket inflates.

It would make sense to have lifting beckets that are always accessible because the casualty's lifelacket might not have inflated and he might be incapable of inflating it. For example, you might be faced with recovering a corpse or an unconscious person.

 

[brman]

I'm still not clear about what is meant by the "lifting beckets" . What you have just quoted seems to refer to the beckets either side of the zip but prv seems to refer to some that don't appear until the lifejacket inflates.

It would make sense to have lifting beckets that are always accessible because the casualty's lifelacket might not have inflated and he might be incapable of inflating it. For example, you might be faced with recovering a corpse or an unconscious person.

Sorry, it would have been clearer if I had quoted the full response. They refer to the visible loops (for use with a safety line) as harness loops. What they refer to as lifting beckets are longer straps (and hence easier to pick up on?) folded up inside the jacket that only become accessible when it inflates.
This is pretty standard for all jackets I think, the only difference here is that zip up jackets need two harness loops and two lifting beckets to allow the load to bridge the zip.

Oh, and just in case this isn't clear, this response might have come from Ocean Safety but I think it refers to any make of jacket with a zip (or plastic buckle) rather than a metal buckle.