Malish
Well-Known Member
Well done, excellent, please put a summary of discussions on here in due course
Your not safe on the East Coast!
- Thread starter Sans Bateau
- Start date
Well done, excellent, please put a summary of discussions on here in due course
nigelm
Well-Known Member
foward planning
Excellent idea FC
bet the south coast boys will be gutted they didnt think of that first
keep a few fathoms of close link handy just in case they cause a upset
Excellent idea FC
bet the south coast boys will be gutted they didnt think of that first
keep a few fathoms of close link handy just in case they cause a upset
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Excellent idea FC
bet the south coast boys will be gutted they didnt think of that first
keep a few fathoms of close link handy just in case they cause a upset
Yeh, whatever!
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Good evening gentlemen. Can I introduce myself? I am Oldharry that Galadriel has been mentioning, and he has drawn my attention to your thread. I started Boat Owners Response Group after the Marine Management Organisation decided they needed 'a boat owner' so that they can say S Coast owners (all x million of us!) were represented at a meeting they held in Poole about Studland.
I came away badly worried by what I had heard, started digging around, and became even more deeply concerned for the future of our sport. I posted about it, and the upshot was the birth of BORG.
Galadriel is in on it with me, and is very much the 'brains' of the outfit. I got myself in bad trouble with my Mrs, spending weeks crouched at the PC digging around and finding out just what was going on when I shopuld have been getting ready for Christmas!
Very briefly, as a result of nearly 15 years international treaties and blah, a plan for a coordinated network of marine Conversation areas across Europe and many other signatory nations was developed. UK passed the Marine Coastal And Access Act 2009 (MCAA 2009), which the RYA managed to influence at the draft stage to ensure boat owners were not too seriously compromised.
The package was handed to DEFRA to implement. They created a new quango, the Marine Management Organisation, taking over from the old Fisheries Board, but with major Conservation rsponisbilities. Now look at it from a civil service point of view, who do we ask to help with conservation? err - conservationists. So first of all Natural England, and JNCC were briefed. These are the governments own conservation authorities. WIth MMO they set up the 4 regional groups, Net gain for the North east, Balanced Seas for SE and S coast, Finding Sanctuary for the SW, and Irish Sea Conservation Zone for - er the Irish Sea.
These organisations in turn had to set up 'Regional Stake Holder Groups' with the task of identifying and recommending areas suitable as 'Marine Conservation Zones', and submitting full data sets in support of their recommendations. This is supposed to be completed by August 31st this year, and has been going on for nearly 2 years. Sadly the time limit for registering interst as a Stakeholder was set for 31/10/10, and BORG did not start till december so we missed the boat by a few weeks, basically because at that time nobody really knew what was going on.
Now keep awake at the back there...! It is important to understand the structure if you are going to be remotely effective in influencing the decisions being made about your area in the next 8 months.
The Regional groups (RSGs) in turn have appointed Local Groups of Stakeholders, to look at sections of the coast, with the same brief - identify and advise, with data sets. You need to be able to identify who runs your local groups, who are your area representatives, and who runs your regional group. BORG has gained quite a lot of experience doing this over the last few weeks and can help you to find these key people, and how you can approach them.
I have concentrated on Finding Sanctuary, because I became very involved in the Studland debate, but Galadriel, who has been my right hand man through all this, now that FS is near completing its work, is concentrating on getting BORG in to the Balanced Seas set up, who are running quite a long way behind Finding Sanctuary.
In 'gatecrashing' Finding sanctuary over the 7 weeks of BORGs existence, we have been incredibly fortunate to have been 'in the right place at the right time' to make several very senior contacts, not only in Finding Sanctuary, but in Natural England, and most importantly, we have a 'hotline' to the Head of Conservation at MMO, and are able to bypass the entire system and get straight to the top if necessary.
Thats how it all works.
A few defintions: BAIs - these are Balanced Seas speak for lines drawn on a map which identify areas which have features which meet the conservation directives.
MCZs are areas defined within the BAI which contain features habitats, marine life, or geolgical features which will receive protection under the new rules. Generally these are seabed features, like the infamous eelgrass beds at Studland Bay which are a habitat for at least two protected species. As an aside one species, Undulate Rays, actually eat the other one - seahorses, but that is nature for you!
There are two types of MCZ defined in the FS area: Ordinary MCZs which protect an area in which one or more of the 29 protected species live, or which shows other characteristics or habitats that are deemed at risk from human activity. These are usually seabed protection areas, and affect the local fishing community quite disasterously in some cases. We know of several Dorset fishermen who are likely to be put out of business as they will be unable to trawl or pot in the new MCZs. However for us boating people, they are not of serious concern except inshore where anchoring and mooring activities are seen to be causing damage. Studland is one such case, as conservationists believe anchoring seriously damages the Elgrass, but it is also one of the most heavily used open sea anchorages in the UK, with up to 10,000 boats a year visiting it. And yes, it is pretty horrendous on ahot bank holiday!
The MCZs you need to watch for are 'reference areas', particularly those with 'Full water column protection'. If you are landed with any of these in places you are used to going and anchoring, or maintaining moorings, then my friends you had better make the most of it this year, because next year you will not be allowed in. Bottom reference areas, you may be allowed to sail through still, but you will not be allowed to anchor. Full water column protection means simply 'go away and stay away'. You will not be allowed to go there, just like the highly protected bird or wildlife reserves on land.
We have challenged FS on a statemnt they put out saying that ' boats will still be allowed to anchor for reasons of safe navigation' , and I am currently in direct contact with the FS project manager discussing the outworking of that statement. You as yachtsmen will know the impossibility of forming a legal definito0n from that statement.
Now, the question on everyones lips: what is the RYA up to? Why have they not warned us, and told us about this in time for us to get ourselves in to the Stakeholder Groups? Firstly their legal department actually did win major concessions in the draft stage of MCAA2009. Reps are present in most if not all the local and regional Stakeholder groups. But of course you all knew that, and know what they are doing. Dont you? No? Well WHAT a surprise!
Didnt you read all about it in the last RYA magazine? No? Funny, because I couldnt find it either. There is about 1 paragraph somehwere near the back.
Logged on to the RYA site lately? There is a clear link to a summary of their work there... er somewhere, near the right hand corner at the bottom in very small print, and not at all clear what it is. You all clicked on it of course, didnt you?
No, the RYA is facing the biggest PR disaster in its history over this. They HAVE been working at it, but they forgot to tell anyone, and it is quite difficult to prise information out of them at present.
PM Galadriel or myself if you want to know who to contact there.
Sorry to give you such a long post, but this really barely skims the surface of it, and there five other grades of conservation area, which are not so immediately important to our sport at present.
Your area is covered from the south to a point N of the Deben by Balanced Seas. North of The Oare you come under Net Gain, who are even further behind in the process than BS. However they have identified most of the coast round Lowestoft and Yarmouth as a BAI requiring full water column protection, so what will happen there next is anybodys guess. But it will be down to you local guys to get involved and try to rescue it.
And the final deadline? Recommendations have to be in by 31 August. And it all becomes law in 2012. If you leave it to then, quite simply IT WILL BE TOO LATE. Once legislation is in place you will effectively have had it. There will be a final 'Public Consultation' next December, but we do not yet know what form that will take. That will be your absolute last chance.
Theres much more you need to know, but Galadriel is very well briefed on it all. I am still heavily involved with tying up loose ends in Finding sanctuary, but am around as the 'Recognised Delegate' at MMO and NE to contact them for you if necessary - though it seems to me you are getting your act together pretty well already.
Good luck all!
I came away badly worried by what I had heard, started digging around, and became even more deeply concerned for the future of our sport. I posted about it, and the upshot was the birth of BORG.
Galadriel is in on it with me, and is very much the 'brains' of the outfit. I got myself in bad trouble with my Mrs, spending weeks crouched at the PC digging around and finding out just what was going on when I shopuld have been getting ready for Christmas!
Very briefly, as a result of nearly 15 years international treaties and blah, a plan for a coordinated network of marine Conversation areas across Europe and many other signatory nations was developed. UK passed the Marine Coastal And Access Act 2009 (MCAA 2009), which the RYA managed to influence at the draft stage to ensure boat owners were not too seriously compromised.
The package was handed to DEFRA to implement. They created a new quango, the Marine Management Organisation, taking over from the old Fisheries Board, but with major Conservation rsponisbilities. Now look at it from a civil service point of view, who do we ask to help with conservation? err - conservationists. So first of all Natural England, and JNCC were briefed. These are the governments own conservation authorities. WIth MMO they set up the 4 regional groups, Net gain for the North east, Balanced Seas for SE and S coast, Finding Sanctuary for the SW, and Irish Sea Conservation Zone for - er the Irish Sea.
These organisations in turn had to set up 'Regional Stake Holder Groups' with the task of identifying and recommending areas suitable as 'Marine Conservation Zones', and submitting full data sets in support of their recommendations. This is supposed to be completed by August 31st this year, and has been going on for nearly 2 years. Sadly the time limit for registering interst as a Stakeholder was set for 31/10/10, and BORG did not start till december so we missed the boat by a few weeks, basically because at that time nobody really knew what was going on.
Now keep awake at the back there...! It is important to understand the structure if you are going to be remotely effective in influencing the decisions being made about your area in the next 8 months.
The Regional groups (RSGs) in turn have appointed Local Groups of Stakeholders, to look at sections of the coast, with the same brief - identify and advise, with data sets. You need to be able to identify who runs your local groups, who are your area representatives, and who runs your regional group. BORG has gained quite a lot of experience doing this over the last few weeks and can help you to find these key people, and how you can approach them.
I have concentrated on Finding Sanctuary, because I became very involved in the Studland debate, but Galadriel, who has been my right hand man through all this, now that FS is near completing its work, is concentrating on getting BORG in to the Balanced Seas set up, who are running quite a long way behind Finding Sanctuary.
In 'gatecrashing' Finding sanctuary over the 7 weeks of BORGs existence, we have been incredibly fortunate to have been 'in the right place at the right time' to make several very senior contacts, not only in Finding Sanctuary, but in Natural England, and most importantly, we have a 'hotline' to the Head of Conservation at MMO, and are able to bypass the entire system and get straight to the top if necessary.
Thats how it all works.
A few defintions: BAIs - these are Balanced Seas speak for lines drawn on a map which identify areas which have features which meet the conservation directives.
MCZs are areas defined within the BAI which contain features habitats, marine life, or geolgical features which will receive protection under the new rules. Generally these are seabed features, like the infamous eelgrass beds at Studland Bay which are a habitat for at least two protected species. As an aside one species, Undulate Rays, actually eat the other one - seahorses, but that is nature for you!
There are two types of MCZ defined in the FS area: Ordinary MCZs which protect an area in which one or more of the 29 protected species live, or which shows other characteristics or habitats that are deemed at risk from human activity. These are usually seabed protection areas, and affect the local fishing community quite disasterously in some cases. We know of several Dorset fishermen who are likely to be put out of business as they will be unable to trawl or pot in the new MCZs. However for us boating people, they are not of serious concern except inshore where anchoring and mooring activities are seen to be causing damage. Studland is one such case, as conservationists believe anchoring seriously damages the Elgrass, but it is also one of the most heavily used open sea anchorages in the UK, with up to 10,000 boats a year visiting it. And yes, it is pretty horrendous on ahot bank holiday!
The MCZs you need to watch for are 'reference areas', particularly those with 'Full water column protection'. If you are landed with any of these in places you are used to going and anchoring, or maintaining moorings, then my friends you had better make the most of it this year, because next year you will not be allowed in. Bottom reference areas, you may be allowed to sail through still, but you will not be allowed to anchor. Full water column protection means simply 'go away and stay away'. You will not be allowed to go there, just like the highly protected bird or wildlife reserves on land.
We have challenged FS on a statemnt they put out saying that ' boats will still be allowed to anchor for reasons of safe navigation' , and I am currently in direct contact with the FS project manager discussing the outworking of that statement. You as yachtsmen will know the impossibility of forming a legal definito0n from that statement.
Now, the question on everyones lips: what is the RYA up to? Why have they not warned us, and told us about this in time for us to get ourselves in to the Stakeholder Groups? Firstly their legal department actually did win major concessions in the draft stage of MCAA2009. Reps are present in most if not all the local and regional Stakeholder groups. But of course you all knew that, and know what they are doing. Dont you? No? Well WHAT a surprise!
Didnt you read all about it in the last RYA magazine? No? Funny, because I couldnt find it either. There is about 1 paragraph somehwere near the back.
Logged on to the RYA site lately? There is a clear link to a summary of their work there... er somewhere, near the right hand corner at the bottom in very small print, and not at all clear what it is. You all clicked on it of course, didnt you?
No, the RYA is facing the biggest PR disaster in its history over this. They HAVE been working at it, but they forgot to tell anyone, and it is quite difficult to prise information out of them at present.
PM Galadriel or myself if you want to know who to contact there.
Sorry to give you such a long post, but this really barely skims the surface of it, and there five other grades of conservation area, which are not so immediately important to our sport at present.
Your area is covered from the south to a point N of the Deben by Balanced Seas. North of The Oare you come under Net Gain, who are even further behind in the process than BS. However they have identified most of the coast round Lowestoft and Yarmouth as a BAI requiring full water column protection, so what will happen there next is anybodys guess. But it will be down to you local guys to get involved and try to rescue it.
And the final deadline? Recommendations have to be in by 31 August. And it all becomes law in 2012. If you leave it to then, quite simply IT WILL BE TOO LATE. Once legislation is in place you will effectively have had it. There will be a final 'Public Consultation' next December, but we do not yet know what form that will take. That will be your absolute last chance.
Theres much more you need to know, but Galadriel is very well briefed on it all. I am still heavily involved with tying up loose ends in Finding sanctuary, but am around as the 'Recognised Delegate' at MMO and NE to contact them for you if necessary - though it seems to me you are getting your act together pretty well already.
Good luck all!
kacecar
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Oldharry, for laying out the facts so simply. I have done my share of delving around the Balanced Seas website and had discovered some of it but yours is a particularly informative summary - in my view something that Balanced Seas should have produced ages ago (not just for boaters) and then kept updated with progress. Thanks.
Malish
Well-Known Member
If you have a few minutes then a look at this site will enable you to peruse the minutes of the more local meetings
http://www.balancedseas.org/page/Local Group Resources.html
At the last meeting in November the North Kent / Essex group didn't even find time to discuss the Medway and one of the two sailing representatives was unable to attend the meeting (and didn't send a substitute - those in the CA may wish to ask why)
http://www.balancedseas.org/page/Local Group Resources.html
At the last meeting in November the North Kent / Essex group didn't even find time to discuss the Medway and one of the two sailing representatives was unable to attend the meeting (and didn't send a substitute - those in the CA may wish to ask why)
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Just to highlight the need to get out there and get involved, Galadriel was today speaking to the HM of a major SW Harbour with a large Marina. He was shocked to find that his Harbour had been earmarked as a Full Water Column Protection no-go conservation zone!
It seems the conservationists drawing lines on their maps didnt even realise there was a Harbour there! They do now!
These guys are drawing lines wherever there are things reported that need protection, regardless. IF nobody challenges the fact they are also in a major yachting centre or wahtever, then it becomes an MCZ by default. That has already happened in the FS area, although not in an area that matters to us.
In your area. Net Gain wants to make Lowestoft and Yarmouth high protection areas. If you dont challenege it and get the lines re-drawn, it will happen, though like in the SW, I am sure their HMs are already working on it!
It seems the conservationists drawing lines on their maps didnt even realise there was a Harbour there! They do now!
These guys are drawing lines wherever there are things reported that need protection, regardless. IF nobody challenges the fact they are also in a major yachting centre or wahtever, then it becomes an MCZ by default. That has already happened in the FS area, although not in an area that matters to us.
In your area. Net Gain wants to make Lowestoft and Yarmouth high protection areas. If you dont challenege it and get the lines re-drawn, it will happen, though like in the SW, I am sure their HMs are already working on it!
Seakindly
Well-Known Member
getting a grip
Thanks for this detailed and straightforward account. Very useful. We should send the wife some chocs to make up for lost family time...
Thanks for this detailed and straightforward account. Very useful. We should send the wife some chocs to make up for lost family time...
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Thanks - she deserves a big one! The gardens a shambles too!
Jomo
Well-Known Member
Fully agree, very informative. Thanks, and thanks too to Jim Drew for his efforts so far.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
I think that just about sums up how the majority of us south coasters feel about it too - subtstitute Studland and some other spots for your E coast favourites, and we are with you all the way.
Problem is, when the governement got going with it, they thought 'conservation'? ah yes, ask the conservationists. And did. And conservationists dont know what boat people think is important. To them Pye End is an area which contains 7 different species and 2 habitat types so needs to be an MCZ. It doesnt occur to them that its also a place you guys like to go, unless you say so and can ensure conservation and boating needs are put together and an outcome that meets both needs is agreed on. It is quite often no more than agreeing on moving a line drawn on a map a few hundred yards without making any difference to the conservationists.
On the other hand you may find a full scale battle like our Studland Bay on your hands.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
With respect to banning navigation through some MCZ's, would that not be in contravention of "The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea", "right of innocent passage through any territorial waters" ?
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
Article 17.
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
Article 17.
Athene V30
Well-Known Member
Jim
I cannot be at Fitting Up Supper but am happy to contribute my share towards the Balanced Seas guest(s).
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Good point. I would also be happy to do the same.
Aries
Well-Known Member
No, that just discusses passage. There is little problem with passage in MCZ's, unless an area is declared prohibited as a water column(ie an area of seabed up the the water surface). The problem is about banning anchorage. Imagine loosing Pyefleet, or The Backwaters. These are the equivalent to Studland Bay.
I can list quite a few other east coast anchorages that could be at risk.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Please, pretty please, stop getting all worked up. Can't be good for the heart.
Jim's arranged to meet with the BS (
) lot. So we can find out first hand what they have mind.It's not because the RSPB suggests something that it's going to happen.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
That's exactly my point.
As per post #8
Looks to me as that will contravene "right of innocent passage".
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Now there IS a thought! Article 17 may just save the day... thanks!
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Hope it helps, stumbled upon it by accident.
