Malish
Well-Known Member
please give Richard chance to respond (he is probably trying to extract some details from other departments)
Thanks
Thanks
YM, PBO digital issues and Kindle...
- Thread starter zaragozo
- Start date
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Stop splitting hairs, the concept of data format and delivery mechanism are intimiately linked.
PDF is not a good format/mechanism for content that is targetted at a wide range of devices because too much of the formatting is determined at source. If you are reading a pdf documnet formatted for A4 even on a small laptop then you often have to scroll up/down and left/right to read a single page. PDF has some capability to "reflow" but that is rarely very successful and does not compare for presentation with an HTML representation of the same content where the device renderer can format the content in a way that is optimal for the capabilities of the device and the preferences of the user.
I am very surprised that you find this to be a good format for your eReader - which do you own? and which magazine do you read that is well-presented on it?
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Files are files are files.
Ah, now you're talking about devices, not delivery mechanism. Which takes us into a completely new series of issues.
To send out a digital copy of a magazine, pdf is absolutely fine. There's a fair chance that it's sent to the printers as a pdf anyway (been there, done that, got the oil skins) and producing a pdf for on-screen reading is a trivial modification. In my case, I tick one box which caps graphics resilution at 72dpi and untick the one which includes all the pre-press stuff round the edges and bob's yer uncle.
Now, if you want a completely different version of PBO or YM or whatever which is readable on a mobile phone, or on a greyscale device like a kindle, that's a completely different problem. Though, once you've reformatted it appropriately, there is still no reason why you can't send it around as a pdf.
Let's remember, too, that e-readers are in their infancy, unusual and not very good. My interest - and I suspect the overwhelming majority of readers' interest - in getting electronic versions of publications is to read them on a computer (desktop, laptop or netbook) screen and for all of these pdf is by far the best option.
Richard Shead
Slipped Anchor
Response
As promised here is the response from Jake who is responsible for the digital side of things with Marine.
I shall leave you to deal direct with Jake if you have any further questions as I am off now until Mid Nov. I do hope this answers your questions and thank you for your patience. Over to Jake......
It's great to have so much interest our digital offerings and feedback like this is really useful to inform our plans going forwards.
In response to concerns about search, we are talking to Zinio to work to improve this. The search facility has improved a great deal since we launched with Zinio in 2004 and you are now able to fully search both the download and online version of the magazine readers. Whilst we work on this, you may want to try entering your search term in the search box at www.zinio.com <file://www.zinio.com> . This will search the entire archive of their magazines for that term - including your library of magazines for the term. We've found that for marine or boat related searches, IPC Media boating titles will always come up first. We're working to incorporate that search box within YBW.com and your own personal libraries too. I can keep you updated on that.
The Delivery Reader was a service offered by Menzies Digital, a supplier we used for less than 9 months for Yachting Monthly and Practical Boat Owner. Sadly they are no longer trading so that is why Zinio remains our preferred supplier. If you had a subscription using the Delivery Reader through Magazines On Demand, please contact me and I will arrange to send you your missing back issues in Zinio format for free.
As far as e-readers go, both IPC and Zinio are working hard independently and on joint initiatives to progress this. YBW.com sister website, NME.com has launched an iPhone app and we're currently looking a releasing one for the marine portfolio in the new year to enable users to read digital issues on their iPhone. We're also in discussions with other technology manufacturers and mobile providers and we've seen some terrific technology in the e-reader, e-paper field that will blow your mind, but as you have identified, we're at the VHS versus Betamax stage of the technology development stage, so progress on that is a little way off. I don't think Kindle is in the picture for our magazines particularly as their current offering only displays text and images in black and white - not great for our world class photography.
You also rightly noted that we are producing replicas of our print titles. This is true, although the experience is different. Many of our magazines include video and audio embedded into articles and as you've noticed hyper linking of advertisers websites is also available. Personally I'd love to see specific versions of magazines produced as digital issues to make the most of the format and the reading experience as Dennis Publishing have done with Monkey and I Gizmo. The resources to achieve that aren't available right now and our digital development strategy is to invest in the websites first as the demand for that is greater than digital editions. You'll have seen the results of some of that investment with the new look YBW.com, launched this week.
As for why we use Zinio aside from the scale and market penetration that they offer - you're right it is because of their excellent record on DRM - digital rights management. As we generate a great deal of valuable content this is the best way to ensure against piracy, which, if left unchecked or secured against, would impact on the quality of the content we produce and long term our jobs and industry. We do use PDFs for copies of our individual boat reports as they are much smaller articles. In terms of the reader platforms available, as mentioned above, Zinio offer two formats: online and download. Download allows you to read even without a connection to the internet once you've downloaded a reader. Great when offshore with no internet connection. Online is fairly obvious, you can read a magazine in your web browser, no donwloads are necessary. I hope you agree, that is about as well-established open, accessible, universal and multiplatform as it gets. You can choose to read online or download each time you access one of the issues in your library.
Finally, pricing. This is a very difficult model to get right for anything sold online and we have put our pricing policy under the microscope several times. As Zinio is a global digital news stand you're comparing our price points to American magazines like Cruising World, who has always charged much less, even for their print product. They don't invest as much as we do in editorial expertise to produce their magazines. Our content is valuable and we employ the world's best yachting journalists to produce it. That does cost us and to pay for that we need to charge for the content irrespective of what platform we deliver it on. As new ways to read digital issues evolves, like the iphone app, we will look at different pricing models for varying lengths of access to a magazines as the Spectator is currently offering it's iPhone readers. What I would say about the cost of our digital subscriptions to our boating magazines is that we've frozen the price point at £29.99 for last 24 months, which is now on average 15% cheaper than our best print subscription offer.
I hope that answers some of your concerns. Thanks again for bringing up this discussion on the forum. If you have any other observations, I'd be really pleased to hear them. Please contact me either on our forum, directly to me by e-mail or if you'd like to talk to me I’ll be at London Boat Show and would be very happy to continue the discussion.
All the best,
Jake
As promised here is the response from Jake who is responsible for the digital side of things with Marine.
I shall leave you to deal direct with Jake if you have any further questions as I am off now until Mid Nov. I do hope this answers your questions and thank you for your patience. Over to Jake......
It's great to have so much interest our digital offerings and feedback like this is really useful to inform our plans going forwards.
In response to concerns about search, we are talking to Zinio to work to improve this. The search facility has improved a great deal since we launched with Zinio in 2004 and you are now able to fully search both the download and online version of the magazine readers. Whilst we work on this, you may want to try entering your search term in the search box at www.zinio.com <file://www.zinio.com> . This will search the entire archive of their magazines for that term - including your library of magazines for the term. We've found that for marine or boat related searches, IPC Media boating titles will always come up first. We're working to incorporate that search box within YBW.com and your own personal libraries too. I can keep you updated on that.
The Delivery Reader was a service offered by Menzies Digital, a supplier we used for less than 9 months for Yachting Monthly and Practical Boat Owner. Sadly they are no longer trading so that is why Zinio remains our preferred supplier. If you had a subscription using the Delivery Reader through Magazines On Demand, please contact me and I will arrange to send you your missing back issues in Zinio format for free.
As far as e-readers go, both IPC and Zinio are working hard independently and on joint initiatives to progress this. YBW.com sister website, NME.com has launched an iPhone app and we're currently looking a releasing one for the marine portfolio in the new year to enable users to read digital issues on their iPhone. We're also in discussions with other technology manufacturers and mobile providers and we've seen some terrific technology in the e-reader, e-paper field that will blow your mind, but as you have identified, we're at the VHS versus Betamax stage of the technology development stage, so progress on that is a little way off. I don't think Kindle is in the picture for our magazines particularly as their current offering only displays text and images in black and white - not great for our world class photography.
You also rightly noted that we are producing replicas of our print titles. This is true, although the experience is different. Many of our magazines include video and audio embedded into articles and as you've noticed hyper linking of advertisers websites is also available. Personally I'd love to see specific versions of magazines produced as digital issues to make the most of the format and the reading experience as Dennis Publishing have done with Monkey and I Gizmo. The resources to achieve that aren't available right now and our digital development strategy is to invest in the websites first as the demand for that is greater than digital editions. You'll have seen the results of some of that investment with the new look YBW.com, launched this week.
As for why we use Zinio aside from the scale and market penetration that they offer - you're right it is because of their excellent record on DRM - digital rights management. As we generate a great deal of valuable content this is the best way to ensure against piracy, which, if left unchecked or secured against, would impact on the quality of the content we produce and long term our jobs and industry. We do use PDFs for copies of our individual boat reports as they are much smaller articles. In terms of the reader platforms available, as mentioned above, Zinio offer two formats: online and download. Download allows you to read even without a connection to the internet once you've downloaded a reader. Great when offshore with no internet connection. Online is fairly obvious, you can read a magazine in your web browser, no donwloads are necessary. I hope you agree, that is about as well-established open, accessible, universal and multiplatform as it gets. You can choose to read online or download each time you access one of the issues in your library.
Finally, pricing. This is a very difficult model to get right for anything sold online and we have put our pricing policy under the microscope several times. As Zinio is a global digital news stand you're comparing our price points to American magazines like Cruising World, who has always charged much less, even for their print product. They don't invest as much as we do in editorial expertise to produce their magazines. Our content is valuable and we employ the world's best yachting journalists to produce it. That does cost us and to pay for that we need to charge for the content irrespective of what platform we deliver it on. As new ways to read digital issues evolves, like the iphone app, we will look at different pricing models for varying lengths of access to a magazines as the Spectator is currently offering it's iPhone readers. What I would say about the cost of our digital subscriptions to our boating magazines is that we've frozen the price point at £29.99 for last 24 months, which is now on average 15% cheaper than our best print subscription offer.
I hope that answers some of your concerns. Thanks again for bringing up this discussion on the forum. If you have any other observations, I'd be really pleased to hear them. Please contact me either on our forum, directly to me by e-mail or if you'd like to talk to me I’ll be at London Boat Show and would be very happy to continue the discussion.
All the best,
Jake
bedouin
Well-Known Member
The whole point is that the delivery mechanism has to encompass everything and take account of the manner in which the recipients will be accessing the content - that certainly includes the device on which it will be read.
There are many better formats for delivery to a variety of devices - for example "HTML" or "EPUB" are both formats that allow the rendering device to take more decisions about customising the presentation to the user than PDF does.
I have a wide variety of electronic devices that can display text from an MP3 player with a 1.5" screen to my desktop with 2x22" monitors. PDF is a great format - but is primarily for page layout (frequently assumed to be portrait) it does not really provide a format suitable for viewing across a range of devices
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I take your point. However, if I'm shelling out for a professional produced magazine in e-format, I'm paying in part for professional, readable design. I don't necessarily want my device to reset the content.
Ultimately, I suppose it depends what we are paying for. If it's a magazine I think it's reasonable to use a format which displays well on a respectable sized display and not worry too much about how it appears on a smartphone. If it's a really size-independent thing then it's not a magazine any more, and the whole "magazine" model may be quite wrong. For example, there is absolutely no reason why digital content should come out in monthly editions.
As long as IPC are producing what are essentially just digital images of their magazine, I think pdf would be the best format. Of course it's their decision, but all the evidence seems to be that heavy DRM is commercially counterproductive.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
But that is the whole point - digital delivery ought to be very different from just reproducing the paper magazine electronically. Very few people, if any, view a pdf file on a machine for which it is an appropriate format - at best they are viewing portrait content on a widescreen monitor and more usually they can't see the whole page at once, so any article printed in columns is frustrating to read.
Digital delivery should be about bite-size pieces of content provided regularly throughout the term - with searchable access to archives.
That is the way magazines will have to evolve - although it may take another 5 years before it becomes common place.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
I think you've just high-lighted the biggest single problem with any of the current digital magazines. I have a few subscriptions with Zinio for some American magazines you just can't easily get over here and it's not bad on a 22" and pretty good on 30" monitor (which is about the size of the magazine when opened of course).
Trouble is I also want to read them on a 12" laptop screen and possibly even a 3" iPhone screen.
The industry needs to develop a client-side technology that adapts the viewing experience to the media and possibly even the customer. Even the web doesn't have this properly yet, though we're starting to get close.
To utilise that and allow us to benefit from that properly the industry also needs to shift to a totally different understanding of editing and employ people who think more web-sites than magazine layouts (I'm not saying current editors and journalists may not be able to adapt but some may well struggle).
I'm not just talking about the editoral staff - the journalists and and photographers need to change too. Journalists need to write in a manner that allows clear understanding when only a small amount of text is in view - this is especially relevant if you're referring to a picture to explain what you're talking about. Photographers are seeing this trend already to some extent - I'm sure Snooks gets very p'ed off when his high resolution pics that he half froze to death to get (OK, maybe not in Annapolis) get looked at on a smart phone. At the same a 480 x 640 pic isn't going to cut it on a 30" Apple Cinema display.
I think you're spot on - about 5 years away but I'm not sure we've really started moving in th right direction yet.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
you are barking up the wrong tree. You simply can't provide the same content on a large screen and on a phone. No editing on this planet provides that, human or automatic.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
That's not so much magazines evolving and magazines ceasing to exist. Which may well happen, of course. For the moment, though, I think a lot of people would be happy with a straightforward digital copy of the printed magazine, and that is what IPC offer, albeit in a pain-in-the-arse format.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I'm saying Brendan - the client end needs to be able to modify the content (or get it modified server-side) so it is suitable for the device it's being displayed on..
bluedragon
Well-Known Member
A bit late into this discussion, but I was subscribing to both PBO and YM via the WHSmith digital service last year, and in the end got quite comfortable with the format on a 15" laptop once I got the page size right. As this service is now defunct, I tried Zinio as a test. The reason I rejected it was (as mentioned above) that is it NOT possible to search your library of back issues as a "library", only as individual copies. The WHS service did not have this limitation. As searching for items of interest in an ever-growing library is one of the PRIME benefits of e- vs. paper magazines, I cannot believe this has been left out of the Zinio service. I have not re-subscribed for this reason. If and when this limitation is fixed, I'll consider renewing my subs to both magazines.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I still think that's teh wrong question in this case. At the moment, YM/PBO are produced as magazines. The digital version may therefore be as near as possible to a magazine as possible - any attempt to reformat it for a smartphone is inevitably going to be a dreadful waste of time.
If IPC decided to produce a different sort of publication, one suited to new digital media, then things would of course change. On the other hand, that new publication would almost certainly comprise much smaller chunks released much more frequently: anchor reviews today, Island Packet Estero tomorrow, some hidden harbours in the Solent on Monday and so on. In which case the inevitable question would be "why bother with a printed magazine?"
Kindle and the rest endeavour to reproduce the printed page as faithfully as possible. Same sort of size, daylight readable, high-contrast digital ink and so on.That seems to be where the nascent market is - digital paper - and the equivalent for YM/PBO is certainly a reasonably sized screen displaying full colour, not content reformatted to fit a tiny display.
As a matter of serious interest, how many of those advocating reformatted stuff are reading these forums on a smartphone?
dmmbruce
Well-Known Member
Why don't any of you take any notice of what Jake Somebody has said.
Most of you are doing pale imitations of Victor Meldrew!
Mike
Most of you are doing pale imitations of Victor Meldrew!
Mike
dvideohd
Member
Round Things in Square Holes....
All said... it's another case of putting round things in square holes... The round thing might fit - but the hole is capable of holding more....
A digital - interactive version is capable of a GREAT DEAL MORE than just transcoding Print to PDF (or equivalent). Unfortunately, the folks doing this have historical roots in print and other "traditional" media.. we all really do come from that background... both viewers and content providers.
It's a new medium (Digital) and just does not have to work the way the OLD (Print) medium does.. truth is, magazine producers loose a great opportunity every month - both for their own revenue and their advertisers benefit too... we as interested parties all miss out - as well.. I like the ADDs... I like the content.. done well - all three parties can advance to a much more beneficial relationship - and that is a good thing....
But I still see traditional media folks trying to make the Round thing completely fill the Square Hole. It's going to continue that way until ONE clever monkey does something blindingly nifty - and all the other monkeys want to copy it. that hadn't happened yet.
*****************
All of us can see how neat the idea of EInk is - and how it gets implemented in the Kindle, Plastic Logic, and other mediums.. But the method of distribution and how the interaction works is frankly akin to the similar first step of using Corn Cobbs in the Crapper.. there could be some improvement..
*******************
It seems at first glance that you are "still" selling "subscriptions"... but I really would have to say that that is NOT what the business is... It's a pretty fundamental business question to say "What Business am I really in???" - I don't think you are in the business of mailing colored paper... the Postal Service is certainly in the business of transporting it (for example) - do you see the point?
I hope that this does not sound off topic... I don't think it is...
--jerry
All said... it's another case of putting round things in square holes... The round thing might fit - but the hole is capable of holding more....
A digital - interactive version is capable of a GREAT DEAL MORE than just transcoding Print to PDF (or equivalent). Unfortunately, the folks doing this have historical roots in print and other "traditional" media.. we all really do come from that background... both viewers and content providers.
It's a new medium (Digital) and just does not have to work the way the OLD (Print) medium does.. truth is, magazine producers loose a great opportunity every month - both for their own revenue and their advertisers benefit too... we as interested parties all miss out - as well.. I like the ADDs... I like the content.. done well - all three parties can advance to a much more beneficial relationship - and that is a good thing....
But I still see traditional media folks trying to make the Round thing completely fill the Square Hole. It's going to continue that way until ONE clever monkey does something blindingly nifty - and all the other monkeys want to copy it. that hadn't happened yet.
*****************
All of us can see how neat the idea of EInk is - and how it gets implemented in the Kindle, Plastic Logic, and other mediums.. But the method of distribution and how the interaction works is frankly akin to the similar first step of using Corn Cobbs in the Crapper.. there could be some improvement..
*******************
It seems at first glance that you are "still" selling "subscriptions"... but I really would have to say that that is NOT what the business is... It's a pretty fundamental business question to say "What Business am I really in???" - I don't think you are in the business of mailing colored paper... the Postal Service is certainly in the business of transporting it (for example) - do you see the point?
I hope that this does not sound off topic... I don't think it is...
--jerry
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
I don't advocate reformatting. I do read the odd thread on a normal phone. If you can call most phones these days normal. Not what I'd call a smartphone though.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
That is what is going to happen - although it may take 5 years or more before it becomes common. Magazine publishers will continue to provide content but that content will be distributed in different ways, and potentially paid for in different ways.
One example that is half way there is the consumer magazine "Which?". I subscribe to the paper version, but use the electronic form much more. That gives me easy access to everything they have written, and goes into much more depth than is feasible on paper.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
I regularly read these forums on a smart phone. Reading is fine although it could be made a little better with less white space all over the place. Replying is slow due to the usual problems with typing on a phone (even though mine does have a keyboard).
However this thread started out talking about the Kindle - which is a different matter all together. I have a Sony eReader and although there are a few issues with it as a 1st generation device I have no doubt at all that these devices will soon become a major platform for reading books, newspapers and magazines. I think that within 5 years I will probably be reading more on an eReader than any other format (including PC, newspaper)
The format of device matches that of a regular book, about the same size and capable of the same information density (e.g. the same size fonts). The major difference between a book and a magazine is that books tend to be primarily about content, whereas a magazine is more about presentation. Hence books have evolved into a format (e.g. paperback) that is optimal for reading large amounts, whereas the large magazines are used where presentation is more important (and larger format books tend to be used for the same purpose - the "coffee table" books).
What the industry is still grappling with is a charging mechanism that will support this. Premium brands (e.g. Which?, and most professional publications) will probably be able to offer an annual subscription that gives access to all content, past and present. Specialist mags like YM, PBO &c should start off offering this sort of service (as opposed to, or in addition to, just digital versions of the current mags).
Beyond that the future is less clear. People are very reluctant to pay more than a few pence for content on line ("physical pounds are digital pence") and the danger is that as we move more towards fragmented digital content there will simply not be enough money in it to support quality journalism
GART
Well-Known Member
Where have the digital editions gone?
I can no longer find them in this new format, I did a search and ended up with this thread nothing else.
I can no longer find them in this new format, I did a search and ended up with this thread nothing else.
pshipley
Member
Digital Version is not £29.99
I think that quoting the price of £29.99 is misleading - what you have neglected to mention, and all of the advertising, is that this excludes VAT. In fact the VAT is not mentioned until after you have selected the magazine, entered your credit card detail and your address, and then at the last screen, bang VAT is added. Very poor IMO, a classic bait and switch.
Right now you have an advert on claiming 39% discount over news stand print version, something that is unachievable to UK residents - as a British magazine, aimed at Biritsh readers you should either advertise a price with VAT or make it clear, before I enter my credit card details, that VAT will be payable.
Once you factor in the VAT, the digital version is 25p cheaper than the print version when both are on subscription. If I buy just the current month, then the digital version is 15% more expensive than high street prices hard copy version.
I think that quoting the price of £29.99 is misleading - what you have neglected to mention, and all of the advertising, is that this excludes VAT. In fact the VAT is not mentioned until after you have selected the magazine, entered your credit card detail and your address, and then at the last screen, bang VAT is added. Very poor IMO, a classic bait and switch.
Right now you have an advert on claiming 39% discount over news stand print version, something that is unachievable to UK residents - as a British magazine, aimed at Biritsh readers you should either advertise a price with VAT or make it clear, before I enter my credit card details, that VAT will be payable.
Once you factor in the VAT, the digital version is 25p cheaper than the print version when both are on subscription. If I buy just the current month, then the digital version is 15% more expensive than high street prices hard copy version.