YM Nov issue, p45 "Always wear a life jacket."

[Deleted member 36384]

The Future Is Not Preordained Except By SWMBO

I sailed professionally in the 80s / early 90s and we didn't wear life jackets except for fog, in the dinghy, non swimmers, that sort of thing; one hand for the boat. Self inflating lifejackets were not the norm by far.

This year I came back to sailing seriously again with my family (SWMBO + 2 kids 11 and 9). At first the wearing of the life jacket with crotch strops was unfamiliar and I didn't want to do it, I also wanted my children to have sea legs and respect for a boat at sea.

SWMBO made it quite clear that they would be worn by the kids and herself. She had no intention of picking me up if I fell overboard, so I had better wear one as well.

This year I have learnt to live with the thing (lifejacket not SWMBO) and I am beginning to feel exposed if I don't have it on. I buy into the RNLI campaign and I am beginning to rationalise the contradiction that I suspect many sailors might practice - put the effort into keeping the boat sound but less effort to keep me sound!

Finally, I got this far in life under my own steam and the future is bright and cheery, so there is no point leaving everything in the lap of fate - I would rather float and drown, than sink and drown, for all sorts of reasons.

 

[mollyoxford]

I'll stick a lifejacket on if I have to go fwd to the bow if it's a bit lively, and if I am going to the mast or lee side if it's livelier yet, or if I am going to need both hands to do the job. I do it so's I can clip on! In nasty conditions it goes on so I can clip on in the cockpit. Molly has no lifelines/stanchions, just 6" toerail. I always hang on!

I suppose I count as one of the fatalist camp, really. I kind of like the safety briefing that an experienced racing skipper gave a friend of mine many years ago. "You fall overboard, you're dead - right, tactics...."

We keep saying we really should wear lifejackets in the dinghy but it is just too much of an @rse. Probably silly.

I'd say about half of the people we see wear them all the time - but often with no crotch strap and so loose that if they did go in the jacket would go up over their head. I have done the "jump in the pool" thing and now know the vital difference correct adjustment makes - it's not necessarily all that obvious until you have tried it....

 

[Deleted member 36384]

When Does The Situation call For wearing A Lifejacket

....... I wear them when I think the situation calls for it.
In fact, I tend to steer well clear of boats with crew wearling LJs in a flat calm.

Britains foremost sailor Rob James drowned in a flat calm after falling off his trimaran.

France's foremost sailor Eric Tabarly, who made a point of not wearing a lifejacket was lost in the Irish sea after being knocked over board by the boom.

I am pretty sure that today's foremost sailors mostly wear life jackets in flat calms.

The point is you don't know what the situation is that "calls for it". Beware of ignorance and arrogance! Oh - am I being arrogant now! Your point is quite dumb in my opinion.

 

[fireball]

Rob James died after the netting broke on the trimaran in the early morning in March 83. He was going forward to lower the main following a trip to Salcome where the boat was to be overhauled.

Eric Tabarly died when the boom knocked him off his boat whilst changing the mainsail in the Irish Sea.

Accidents can happen at any time, but I'm with Nick here ... wear the jacket when the situation calls for it.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I agree that its up to the individual to wear or not wear a lifejacket, except when they are on my boat and its up to me, but the point is no one knows when the called situation will happen.

My own decision to reluctantly start wearing one is because of the following: -
- I want to grow old with my wife and do not want to leave my children fatherless.
- If my body is lost at sea then it is much harder and prolonged to get the life insurance to pay out.
- If I drown at sea I would hope that my lifejacket will allow the body to be recovered so that there is closure.
- I actually don't want to increase the risk of drowning should I fall overboard.

Like seat belts are now natural for me to wear (compulsory in the UK), I am more or less at the point of naturally wearing a lifejacket.

I think people should wear them. I don't at anchor or on a mooring - yes accidents happen and no one knows when.

I have been thinking of just wearing a harness now to get away from the crotch straps and relative bulkyness of an un-inflated lifejacket, as preventing falling over is actually much more important to me than floating in the Ogin! It reduces a whole raft of problems if I just stay on the boat!

 

[fireball]

but the point is no one knows when the called situation will happen

This only applies to cruising, because if you're racing you're generally pushing things anyway ... so ...

its quite simple - if we're pottering around in the harbour or solent in benign weather then there is no call for LJs (you can wear one if you like). I'm the only one that (generally) goes on deck and if it is marginal then I'll either not go or put the LJ and lifeline on (LJ has the built in harness) .
The boom is above head level and we're all adults on board.
If I had children aboard and expect them to wear a LJ then I would too - it's only fair!

 

[deep denial]

.

My own decision to reluctantly start wearing one is because of the following: -
- I want to grow old with my wife and do not want to leave my children fatherless.
- If my body is lost at sea then it is much harder and prolonged to get the life insurance to pay out.
- If I drown at sea I would hope that my lifejacket will allow the body to be recovered so that there is closure.
- I actually don't want to increase the risk of drowning should I fall overboard.

!

But do you drive down to the sea to start your sail? If so you are at much higher risk, seatbelt or not, than sailing without a lifejacket.
Re Ireland: Does anyone know if the (genuine) statistics have shown a reduction in marine deaths since the introduction of compulsory wearing?

 

[LadyInBed]

I've fallen off twice, both times in benign conditions, and both times I managed to hang on to the boat as I went over (hanging from a guard rail bl**dy hurts). Neither time with an LJ. I reckoned someone was trying to get a message through to me, and have worn an LJ ever since the second occasion.

Ken, the message should be - Ware a harness and clip on, so you can't fall off in the first place.

The alternative is to get a boat with wider decks so that you can take your walking frame

 

[rallyveteran]

SWMBO made it quite clear that they would be worn by the kids and herself. She had no intention of picking me up if I fell overboard, so I had better wear one as well.

I'm confused by this. If your wife isn't going to pick you up why does a lifejacket help? Surely a harness and tether would make more sense.

I can see the point in a lifejacket if you are close to shore, and especially when using a dinghy, but if I'm away from land I'd go for a harness over a lifejacket any day of the week. I did the Caribbean 1500 Rally from Chesapeake to the Caribbean and we were required to wear lifejackets at all times. When I asked the organisers why this was they said it was in the US Offshore Sailing Racing Rules, even though it was clearly daft.

I'll bet you anything you like that if British law gets changed it will require lifejackets not harnesses and threads like this won't help.

 

[TiggerToo]

If I had children aboard and expect them to wear a LJ then I would too - it's only fair!

that is one of the reasons we always wear ours on Tigger: kids are usually on board with us...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.....But do you drive down to the sea to start your sail? If so you are at much higher risk, seatbelt or not, than sailing without a lifejacket....

The car risk is irrelevant. If its statistics that matter then the case is: Is the risk of drowning on a yacht higher or lower when wearing a lifejacket. It is likely to be lower. Based on reducing risk of drowning one would wear a life jacket, if that was all there was to it.

Statistics don't matter in this case and are just as irrelevant as above when making a decision on whether one should or should not wear a lifejacket.

My position suits me fine for entirely personal reasons and I support the right of others to do as they see fit, except on my boat when I am the skipper.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I'm confused by this. If your wife isn't going to pick you up why does a lifejacket help? Surely a harness and tether would make more sense.......

Good grief its supposed to be funny! Threads like this are probably irrelevant to law makers and even to many posters. Yes I agree a harness is better.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Given that the price of an LJ with a harness is not that much more than a harness on its own, why not buy and wear the combination? And actually, both times I've fallen in were when I was preparing to get off, and wouldn't have been clipped on anyway.

 

[dk]

Useless when worn...

...with full oilies.
Whether or not we choose to wear a lifejacket (personally I don't very often unless it's blowing old boots - which I agree is illogical), tests carried out recently with 12 different makes of brand-new lifejackets, worn by an average size guy wearing full coastal oilskins beneath, showed that - in 8 out of the 12 trials, the lifejacket failed to turn the wearer over if he fell in the water face down and played at being unconscious.
Now I understand there are numerous variables here - not least it was done in a dead calm, freshwater swimming pool, and that most time the motion of the boat or waves would help right you - but it does give you food for thought. The one reason I'd want to wear an automatic LJ is to right me when I've been knocked unconscious by the boom and am incapable of turning myself over!

 

[fireball]

<snip>both times I've fallen in were when I was preparing to get off,.

TBH I can't think of a time I would like to be encumbered by a LJ when trying to get off - you've got a movable object (your boat) coming up against an immovable object (pontoon/boat/jetty/wall) and the last think you need is to be flung on your back with limited vis/manoeuvrability.
Granted - there is the shock and if you're singlehanded it is a little more dangerous - but it could be the difference between being crushed or drowned ...

 

[Ariadne]

Lifejackets are great if you go over the side!

I/we on CAPE work on the theory of not going over the side - but, if they do its easier to haul them over the guardwire/through the gate than it is recover them from in the water.

So working on that theory, unless there is another person on watch with you, you always clip on before getting in the cockpit, nobody goes on deck on thier own unless clipped on, if we think we may need to reef, then everybody is clipped on regardless, at night everybody clips on and wears lifetags just in case.

Lifejackets are kept dry under the sprayhood, so are at hand should it be decided to wear them.

Having been over the side once, I believe its far better & safer to stay onboard!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I think the arguments on both sides of this one have been bandied about for so long now that there’s nothing new to say and nobody will change their minds. However, I can’t resist some disjointed and rather random notes.

IMHO life jackets are a piss poor protection against the (limited) threats yachtsmen face. I think I’m right in saying that drowning is almost unheard of as a sole cause of death in yachting. Some years ago head injury was a leading cause of the few deaths on Yachts. (I suspect it still is.) Yet nobody criticizes people who sail without helmets. What about cold?

The RNLI talk the talk on life jackets but they don’t’ walk the walk. You should see the jackstays on a Tyne Class boat. Plus as far as I can tell they all wear drysuits. Seems to me that for themselves they take a far more considered view on sea survival than they advocate for yachtsmen.

Eric Tabarley died in 98? The very early days of inflatable lifejackets when (AFAICR) people were still very much in favour of clipping on due to the bulkiness of ’rigid’ lifejackets. It’s a long while ago but I’m pretty sure hardly anyone in our club was routinely wearing an LJ then. Taberley was famous for not clipping on. Did he die because he wasn’t wearing a life jacket which wasn’t even typical kit back then or did he die because he wasn’t clipped on?

Rob James died in 1983! NOBODY routinely wore life Jackets in ’83. I bet you he’d have been better off clipped on.

The Ouzos in British Summertime went in wearing life jackets. All still died.

Relative safety is an interesting one. I haven’t seen figures but I’m willing to bet the chances of dying on a yacht wearing a life jacket are almost identical to the chances when not wearing them - anyone got any figures to prove/disprove this? In contrast taking the train to the marina, giving up smoking, eating sensibly could all really prolong your life - the LJ taliban don’t seem to care about these more obvious and tangible risks to life.

Also isn’t it incredible that wearing an inflatable lifejacket is deemed to be exactly the right amount of safety. No more and no less. It’s fine to go to sea with no EPIRB. There’s no need for a more robust LJ. There’s no clamour for people to wear decent thermal protection or head protection. It’s laughably over simplistic.

As a friend in the fireservice said after the rules changed to require the wearing of lifejackets in inland waterways rescues “From the moment the lifejacket goes off you‘re helpless and as much a casualty as the person you‘re trying to rescue.” Certainly I’d agree with that. I love to swim and I certainly don’t think I’m far more mobile in the water with an LJ on, and in the places I like to anchor best, self rescue is the only option if a topple out of the Dinghy.

I can see the arguments for lifejackets. I wear one myself whenever I feel I might want to clip on because since I got my first inflatable LJ I see no reason not to once the decision to put a harness on has been taken. (And I make the choice to be ready to clip on early choice early.) I do however fear that the propaganda on this has made it impossible for some to rationally assess risks.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I think the arguments on both sides of this one have been bandied about for so long now that there’s nothing new to say and nobody will change their minds.

Yeah I know. I was hoping that the subtle reference to the YM guys pictured in the same mag doing without would make somebody bite.... but they haven't!

 

[Blueboatman]

Each to their own but I always wear a harness and as a token to having used up a coiuple of cats lives, I reckon, now have one really good LJ per person for dinghy times..

My theory is if the LJs are top quality and very comfortable and discrete then they do get used..

Singlehanded I am to be found tethered to the cockpit even when ahem sleeping, cooking or ablutin !

Be f--ing embarassing if YBW's crack safety team, whilst carrying out a safety exercise, suddenly had to get real though !

 

[Koeketiene]

Britains foremost sailor Rob James drowned in a flat calm after falling off his trimaran.

France's foremost sailor Eric Tabarly, who made a point of not wearing a lifejacket was lost in the Irish sea after being knocked over board by the boom.

I am pretty sure that today's foremost sailors mostly wear life jackets in flat calms.

The point is you don't know what the situation is that "calls for it". Beware of ignorance and arrogance! Oh - am I being arrogant now! Your point is quite dumb in my opinion.

1. Foremost sailor or newbie - what difference does it make? We can all make mistakes.

2. Whether today's foremost sailors wear a LJ or not, is neither here nor there. On my boat, I'm in charge.

3. Five years ago (at the age of 39!) I was rushed to hospital following a massive stroke - whilst making sandwiches Had it been 20 mins earlier or later I would have been doing 80 on the M1 - had my wife not been home with me, I would have died there and then.
The end comes when it comes - I refuse to go through life afraid of my own shadow. What if...

4. As to what you think - listen to this...



... it's the sound of me not caring.