YM instructors - are they that good?

[zaragozo]

Looking back on my short, but eventful, sailing life, it would seem that all of my three major gouges to my boat have been done with a so-called YM qualified instructor on board on an own-boat contact based on the premise 'I'll do as I normally do but if you think it's not good, please intervene'.
Two of the incidents were marina based and resulted from unhelpful tides and the other from from a first time, single-handed mooring up to a pontoon barge with poorly set fenders ie too low to protect from an overhanging concrete edge. Notwithstanding the general sheepishness of the said instructors and their desire to finish the day asap I am wondering if these fellas have any definable personal liability if things go awry - or, even, god forbid, insurance.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Were these people cruising instructors or genuine YM instructors? Its quite tough to get the YMI ticket, and such people shouldn't normally be dinging your boat. I hope that the damage is not too bad.

Notwithstanding the above, none of us is perfect and I've been known to get it wrong in my own boat. Only the other week I managed to allow a ladder to touch the topsides as SWMBO and I were 'walking the boat back' prior to getting away from a berth in Sutton Harbour (despite lots of fenders in place). I seem fated by Sutton, the last three times I have been in there I have scratched our pride and joy. The first time, the drive failed to the gearbox from the flywheel and the boat gently climbed onto the pontoon dead ahead as I entered the berth. The second time, the docking master was optimistic about which berth we could get into and was then helping on the finger pontoon and calmly watched our fenders roll out and a sticking out chain from some one else's permanent mooring warp snubber scratch the side of out boat as we tried to get into a space that was too small for us that he told us to try to get into. The third and last time - see above.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Were these people cruising instructors or genuine YM instructors? Its quite tough to get the YMI ticket, and such people shouldn't normally be dinging your boat.

As a matter of passing interest, do YMs and YMIs have to demonstrate competence across a range of boats? I presume, or at least hope, that they would be expect to perform competent boat handling in small and large boats with - at the very least - fin and long keels. 'Zat the case?

 

[Lakesailor]

I suppose everyone makes mistakes. You can't be perfect.
Having and Instructor title makes you more vulnerable.

Having said that I have seen some diabolical actions taken on boats "under instruction".

 

[jonjo]

I seem fated by Sutton, the last three times I have been in there I have scratched our pride and joy.

I nearly had a prang in Sutton Harbour. Was singlehanding through the lock and engaged the autopilot for a couple of seconds. All the metal in the lock structure sent the autopilot compass haywire

 

[hlb]

From observing RYA courses. we normally film them as there mostly better than Mr Bean. Loads of bodies, a thousand fenders, then the big crash. They mostly manage to crash on the way out again.. Once backing in to the pontoon they had just left.

It's a job for folk wanting to teach and earn money. There are no old fishermen there, even though the fisher men have lost there jobs.
SO LOADS OF TRAINING FOLK have never seen a boat like yours. They mossly have not that much experience.

The catch is, owning a boat like yours, is far passed what a trainer could own. He has litle knowedge

 

[nimbusgb]

The catch is, owning a boat like yours, is far passed what a trainer could own. He has little knowledge

Ouch that's a bit steep! Although in part I agree.

I taught people to fly sailplanes. When I was teaching I also owned top-of-the line racing sailplanes. ( 15m and Open class ) the difference between sailplane and yacht training? Yacht training is an out and out business. Soaring instruction is free. Instructors donate their time and knowledge for no reward. ( The occasional cold beer at the end of the day helps keep things going well however. )

It's still heavily regulated and there are some clever rules. For example to keep your instructors rating you have to do a minimum number of solo hours per year and a minimum number of cross country miles. Stands to reason, you need people with the very experience you are trying to impart rather than those that have just read about it. I get a kick out of teaching stuff that I know to others and there are few things as satisfying as sending a pilot on his first solo.

I have an 11.5m yacht and have sailed blue water on yachts up to 90 foot and dinghys on dams and reservoirs. I'd love to teach people to sail. The RYA has it all wrapped up as a business and to be honest I reckon that's what the problem is. Candidates shop around for the cheapest course then expect to pay £500 for a week and to emerge at the other end as Tom Cunliffes.

Becoming a good sailor takes a lifetime and just like with a driving licence or a pilots licence if you think you know it all it'll turn round and bite you. Being a good instructor at anything is both a gift and an honour - not a business!

 

[Barnacle Bill]

As a matter of passing interest, do YMs and YMIs have to demonstrate competence across a range of boats? I presume, or at least hope, that they would be expect to perform competent boat handling in small and large boats with - at the very least - fin and long keels. 'Zat the case?

In a word, no.

Most YMI's spend most of their instructing time on Sailing School boats, which are all pretty similar.

When you do own boat tuition (as I have occasionally) you have the added problem: you are not the "real" skipper! Also you are not running a course in the normal way, over which you have full control: you are essentially providing a service for the owner. So it is not nearly as easy to jump in and take over to prevent an accident. Plus you are not familiar with this boat.

You have to let people make mistakes when instructing, and it is a very fine art picking things up in time to prevent an accident (particularly with close quarters boat handling) - and the fact is, this is harder in the less controlled situation of own boat tuition than it is on a Day Skipper or Coastal Skipper course.

My advice to owners is: establish who is the skipper (you are, generally) and the skipper is responsible for what happens to the boat. So don't get yourself into a situation you are uncomfortable with.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

From observing RYA courses. we normally film them as there mostly better than Mr Bean. Loads of bodies, a thousand fenders, then the big crash. They mostly manage to crash on the way out again.. Once backing in to the pontoon they had just left.

I guess it's to be expected that people who are training are those most likely to have a few more unexpected incidents than those with bags of experience. I've watched plenty of RYA courses too (and run quite a few), and yes of course they are more untidy with their manoeuvres - but I wouldn't dream of ridiculing them for trying to learn how to do it properly

It's a job for folk wanting to teach and earn money. There are no old fishermen there, even though the fisher men have lost there jobs.

Surely most jobs are for people who want to earn money ... and if you can earn money doing something you enjoy, that's great. Good luck to them. It isn't a well paid job (and I do know a couple of ex-fishermen who are active instructors, and who do the job fairly well - although to be fair, they are better boathandlers than they are instructors)

SO LOADS OF TRAINING FOLK have never seen a boat like yours. They mossly have not that much experience.

True, but there are exceptions

The catch is, owning a boat like yours, is far passed what a trainer could own. He has litle knowedge

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that you have to be able to afford a particular type of boat to be able to train others to drive it. I've worked with a number of the superyachts in the Med, and I couldn't buy one even if I won Euromillions, but I'm quite happy that I can help the crew develop their skills

 

[grumpygit]

Becoming a good sailor takes a lifetime and just like with a driving licence or a pilots licence if you think you know it all it'll turn round and bite you. Being a good instructor at anything is both a gift and an honour - not a business!

Absolutely bang on the nail.

Most instructors I know out here and back in the UK are very professional and able. They have sailed from been kids through to be very experienced sailors/instructors with good teaching abilities.
Of course this is not always the case, some are so experienced but do not have what it takes to put across to the student, as nimbusgb say's...it' a gift.

The biggest problem as I see it is the RYA fast trackers, no experience and no idea......

_____________________________________________________________________

 

[Ubergeekian]

Soaring instruction is free. Instructors donate their time and knowledge for no reward. ( The occasional cold beer at the end of the day helps keep things going well however. )

It's still heavily regulated and there are some clever rules. For example to keep your instructors rating you have to do a minimum number of solo hours per year and a minimum number of cross country miles. Stands to reason, you need people with the very experience you are trying to impart rather than those that have just read about it. I get a kick out of teaching stuff that I know to others and there are few things as satisfying as sending a pilot on his first solo.

I never, in fifteen years as an active glider pilot, met an instructor who couldn't fly. I did, however, meet a fair number of instructors who couldn't teach. Perhaps not wholly their fault - I was asked to start training, bought the instructors' manual and promptly withdrew because it was so educationally dreadful.

I don't want to sound too churlish, though - gliding instructors on the whole do a fine and conscientious job, all the more remarkably when you consider the cost to their own soaring time.

 

[timbartlett]

Airline pilots don't own their own aircraft; surgeons don't own their own hospitals.
YMIs are human beings: they have different experiences, they have good days and bad days, and there are good ones, OK ones, and great ones.

What YMIs have in common is that they all have a certain minimum level of personal experience; they have all taken (and passed) an exam in personal competence; and they have all been individually assessed as instructors to qualify in the first place and attend regular revalidation courses in order to stay qualified.

People who pontificate on web fora do not have to jump through any of those hoops. In many cases it is clear that they haven't and/or couldn't.

 

[zaragozo]

Phew! That's all right then.

 

[oldsaltoz]

Looking back on my short, but eventful, sailing life, it would seem that all of my three major gouges to my boat have been done with a so-called YM qualified instructor on board on an own-boat contact based on the premise 'I'll do as I normally do but if you think it's not good, please intervene'.
Two of the incidents were marina based and resulted from unhelpful tides and the other from from a first time, single-handed mooring up to a pontoon barge with poorly set fenders ie too low to protect from an overhanging concrete edge. Notwithstanding the general sheepishness of the said instructors and their desire to finish the day asap I am wondering if these fellas have any definable personal liability if things go awry - or, even, god forbid, insurance.

The only problem I can recall with an instructor was his constant chatter about his disasters in his past like the time he was blown from the companionway to the forward cabin due to gas explosion.

The situation was complicated by the fact the position given to the evacuation chopper was Turtle bay, there must be a dozen bay with that name on the east coast alone. They finally located him and got him to hospital for burns treatment.

But the story above took him over 30 minutes to tell.

I would also add I have never had an instructor who was in a hurry to get back and off the boat. Even when I did my YM offshore with 3 others on board we were out there for almost 36 hours. The examiner remained on deck the whole time cat napping and asking questions. No was left in the cabin for more than a 3 hour break after 10 hrs on deck.

If you have a poor teacher, let them know and move on, it will benefit both of you.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Airline pilots don't own their own aircraft; surgeons don't own their own hospitals.

Airline pilots train and are checked for every type and subtype of aircraft they fly. Surgeons are expected to work on all varieties of human and will have special training on working with the very young or very old.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

As a matter of passing interest, do YMs and YMIs have to demonstrate competence across a range of boats? I presume, or at least hope, that they would be expect to perform competent boat handling in small and large boats with - at the very least - fin and long keels. 'Zat the case?

No. Most baots are fairly similar anyway, and you'd no more do training on a long keel boat than on a tea clipper. They are both obsolete designs really.

Would you expect your driving instructor to have driven everything from a road roller to a golf cart?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

More Than A Few Poor Instructors

There are many, many c r a p YM Instructors around. I have witnessed more than a few on the renewal courses. Its embarrassing and demeaning to the profession and the RYA.

Always let the RYA know if you see anything less than expectations to the RYA. They will investigate and its the only way to ram home that sloppy behaviour is not appreciated.

 

[timbartlett]

Airline pilots train and are checked for every type and subtype of aircraft they fly. Surgeons are expected to work on all varieties of human and will have special training on working with the very young or very old.

My comment about pilots and hospitals was in response to

The catch is, owning a boat like yours, is far passed what a trainer could own. He has litle knowedge

which seemed to assume that because a boat was far passed what a trainer could own he would have litle knowedge.
Yet I presume you do not assume that an airline pilot has litle knowedge just because owning an airliner is far passed him or that a surgeon has litle knowedge just because he doesn't own the hospital he works in.

And while we're on the subject, how do you feel about the idea that it would be better to be taught to sail by an unemployed deckhand off a fishing boat who has never been on a sailing boat than by someone who knows how to sail?

 

[Ubergeekian]

No. Most baots are fairly similar anyway, and you'd no more do training on a long keel boat than on a tea clipper. They are both obsolete designs really.

Would you expect your driving instructor to have driven everything from a road roller to a golf cart?

I would be surprised to find a driving instructor who could only drive Corsas, or whatever they use these days, just as I would be disconcerted to find someone called a Yachtmaster who could really only hack it on a 42' modern fin keeler with a bow thruster. I'd certainly expect a Yachtmaster Instructor to be capable in just about anything from a Corribee to one of those Volvo things.

 

[Ubergeekian]

And while we're on the subject, how do you feel about the idea that it would be better to be taught to sail by an unemployed deckhand off a fishing boat who has never been on a sailing boat than by someone who knows how to sail?

All the fishing boat round here have lots of motor car tyres along their sides. They seem to need 'em, too.

It's a daft idea, clearly.