YM Exam - Best way to do Sec Port Calc

[Stemar]

the theory exam requires accuracy to two decimal places.

Be nice if someone would tell whoever's in charge of the wet stuff going up and down. I find them very sloppy in their calculations sometimes

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Be nice if someone would tell whoever's in charge of the wet stuff going up and down. I find them very sloppy in their calculations sometimes

Exactly. Which is why it’s pointless, and why our resident examiner doesn’t ask for it. If you’re expecting to clear something by 10cm, any passing motor boat is going to leave you sorely disappointed, quite apart from the effects of a bit of high pressure, or wind in the wrong direction.

 

[Sandy]

Thank you for the suggestion, have ordered one along with a mini col regs book. Great selection of stuff they have.

They are a lovely bunch of people. If you are ever in Plymouth well worth a visit.

 

[capnsensible]

Exactly. Which is why it’s pointless, and why our resident examiner doesn’t ask for it. If you’re expecting to clear something by 10cm, any passing motor boat is going to leave you sorely disappointed, quite apart from the effects of a bit of high pressure, or wind in the wrong direction.

This can be useful for those who are just embarking on their sailing adventure:

1. Understand the theoretical aspects to navigation.

2. Put into practice in practical situations learning how to deal with real tides and sensible tolerances.

People often seem to forget their early days. Just because I find secondary port calculations in my head, I would obviously never expect that from a student, especially those that are finding out that they exist for the first time.

I find the topic a good exceercise in helping people to start to comprehend the movement of tides along coasts and how it affects their slow moving craft.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Not as far as I’m concerned. (And I’m authorised to teach theory and conduct and mark the theory exams). I’ve heard horror stories of some night school instructors in the past but I thought most of them had been weeded out by now

or perhaps there was a touch of hyperbole in your post?

No. That was what I was informed at the time. More "rule of thumb" calculations were fine for practical purposes in real life.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Exactly. Which is why it’s pointless, and why our resident examiner doesn’t ask for it. If you’re expecting to clear something by 10cm, any passing motor boat is going to leave you sorely disappointed, quite apart from the effects of a bit of high pressure, or wind in the wrong direction.

Motor boats are excluded from theory exams?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

This can be useful for those who are just embarking on their sailing adventure:

1. Understand the theoretical aspects to navigation.

2. Put into practice in practical situations learning how to deal with real tides and sensible tolerances.

People often seem to forget their early days. Just because I find secondary port calculations in my head, I would obviously never expect that from a student, especially those that are finding out that they exist for the first time.

I find the topic a good exceercise in helping people to start to comprehend the movement of tides along coasts and how it affects their slow moving craft.

I can do the calcs, but rarely do. An in the head rule of thumb is usually adequate in practice, unless working out the last time to arrive at a marina with a cill. Then we all need to remember how to do it properly!

As for motor boats, a number seem to not bother with any form of seamanship or navigation, beyond pointing the bow at the destination and opening the throttles. Equally, you find sailing craft skippered by people who seemingly don't know how to sail. That being the case, it's hard to tell if they know how to navigate.

 

[ylop]

Eg. ‘You’re anchored in a secondary port area at xxx time and the echo sounder reads 5.4 metres. You draw 2 metres. How much clearance under your keel will you have at next LW? How much chain will you put out to ensure you’ve sufficient scope at next HW? ‘
This is EXACTLY the sort of everyday question yachtsmen face when sailing in tidal waters so it’s not exactly unfair to ask it… yet some YM candidates really struggle.

Is that not DS level? I got asked exactly that sort of question on my Day Skipper Practical - presumably as part of the Instructor verifying I had the actual theory level needed.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Is that not DS level? I got asked exactly that sort of question on my Day Skipper Practical - presumably as part of the Instructor verifying I had the actual theory level needed.

How would you make it more difficult at YM level? At DS you need an awareness and some attempt at accuracy/competence of tidal heights. YM demands competency and reasonable accuracy.

 

[laika]

How would you make it more difficult at YM level? At DS you need an awareness and some attempt at accuracy/competence of tidal heights. YM demands competency and reasonable accuracy.

Whilst I was aware that secondary ports are not a DS requirement it would seem that it's a fairly fundamental skill which is really quite important for the every day day sailor visiting newtown creek for example or picking up one of those buoys "round the corner" upstream from buckler's hard. I understand the rationale for steps in the ladder and I defer to the RYA on how best to structure their syllabi, but it *is* a skill the average beginning solent potterer might be wish to know. Leaving the trickier secondary ports with critical curves to YM is fair enough.

 

[ylop]

How would you make it more difficult at YM level?

no I was more aghast that you had YM candidates who were struggling with something I thought was an essential requirement much further down the syllabus

At DS you need an awareness and some attempt at accuracy/competence of tidal heights. YM demands competency and reasonable accuracy.

that strikes me as odd! My risk of grounding from a ropey calculation is no lower because I am only hopping from port to port or anchorage to anchorage in daylight - in fact it might be higher because “I” and not confident leaving in darkness or because I spend much more time inshore than someone making long multi day passages. To be clear, I’m not arguing with you, I’m confused by the syllabus. There are a few things like that, which seem like they dumbed them down to fit the market/price/duration rather than what the DS actually needs.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

no I was more aghast that you had YM candidates who were struggling with something I thought was an essential requirement much further down the syllabus

that strikes me as odd! My risk of grounding from a ropey calculation is no lower because I am only hopping from port to port or anchorage to anchorage in daylight - in fact it might be higher because “I” and not confident leaving in darkness or because I spend much more time inshore than someone making long multi day passages. To be clear, I’m not arguing with you, I’m confused by the syllabus. There are a few things like that, which seem like they dumbed them down to fit the market/price/duration rather than what the DS actually needs.

It would certainly seem logical that the Coastal candidate would be more in need of accuracy of secondary port calculations.

 

[LadyInBed]

Excellent!

Your too kind, thanks ?

 

[laika]

There are a few things like that, which seem like they dumbed them down to fit the market/price/duration rather than what the DS actually needs.

fitting the course to a duration I think is a practical necessity. There's only so much you can teach to a mixed ability group in 5 days and if you make the course longer it's going to discourage participation. So the question would probably be "if we include secondary ports, what would we drop?". Actually there doesn't seem to be much that's non-essential in there. While sticking by the assertion that secondary port calculations are a part of regular day sailing, I do understand that there's only so much that it's practical to fit into the DS course.

 

[capnsensible]

fitting the course to a duration I think is a practical necessity. There's only so much you can teach to a mixed ability group in 5 days and if you make the course longer it's going to discourage participation. So the question would probably be "if we include secondary ports, what would we drop?". Actually there doesn't seem to be much that's non-essential in there. While sticking by the assertion that secondary port calculations are a part of regular day sailing, I do understand that there's only so much that it's practical to fit into the DS course.

There is an introduction to secondary ports in the Day Skipper Theory course.

 

[Stemar]

One of the advantages of a two foot draft is that under any normal circumstances, all I have to worry about is staying off the green bits of the chart unless I'm expecting to dry out.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

One of the advantages of a two foot draft is that under any normal circumstances, all I have to worry about is staying off the green bits of the chart unless I'm expecting to dry out.

Likewise. As ours is 5ft when under sail, I do keep a kind of running depth calculation in my head, just in case I get too brave avoiding the tide. Racing habits die hard, we freaked out some dog walkers on the green in Yarmouth a few days ago.

 

[john_morris_uk]

One of the advantages of a two foot draft is that under any normal circumstances, all I have to worry about is staying off the green bits of the chart unless I'm expecting to dry out.

One of my consistent tasks when taking YM prep courses is reminding candidates that it’s quite ok (and sometimes quicker and safer) to sail over the green bits on the chart.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

One of my consistent tasks when taking YM prep courses is reminding candidates that it’s quite ok (and sometimes quicker and safer) to sail over the green bits on the chart.

Depending if you’re in Poole Harbour or St Peter Port of course.

 

[Stemar]

One of my consistent tasks when taking YM prep courses is reminding candidates that it’s quite ok (and sometimes quicker and safer) to sail over the green bits on the chart.

Indeed. Maybe I should have added "unless there's a bit of tide under me". Keep off the green is the quick and dirty version. If I need or want to go over a bit, I have to start looking closer. How green, and how much tide? On a rising tide, I may take a chance, on the ebb, not likely.

BTW, does anyone know the depth over the barrier between Southsea and Horse Sand Fort? I've never seen it above water, so I have sailed over it a couple of times near high tide, but it was a bit squeaky bum as we crossed it