Yet another yacht purchase / EU travel question

[Airscrew]

Hello All.

This is a variant on all the other questions and answers, hence a new thread. (Apols if I'm wrong),

We are looking to buy another yacht. We will be selling the UK yacht.
The majority of the type(s) we are looking at are in France, and French registered.

Is it realistic, or impossible, as a UK resident (and we will remain so), to buy in France, keep the French registration, and to sail without restrictions (on the yacht) in an extended fashion around the Med and within the Eu (Spain, Italy, Greece).
Do we need a French address?
That could be possible via my Sister in the Pyrenees (same name and initial might be helpful!!)
Extended meaning weeks or a couple of months at time, ducking back to the UK when we want.

I think the 90/180 will continue to apply to us as individuals and British citizens, but not the French registered yacht.
Yes??

Or have I missed something (or many things!!).

 

[sailaboutvic]

Ok here we go , if you buy a boat be it french, or Germany what ever and it's EU vat paid it can stay in the EU for ever ,
It the same where ever you registered it .
For you a British citizen you stuck with the 90/180 rule.
I wouldn't keep it on the registration even if you could , French boat have to pay a tax no matter where it's kept plus you have to apply to French rules

 

[colind3782]

Buy the yacht and put it on the UK SSR. The boat can stay but you are restricted to the 90/180. If Tranona answers this post, listen to what he says!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Buy the yacht and put it on the UK SSR. The boat can stay but you are restricted to the 90/180. If Tranona answers this post, listen to what he says!

As I said where ever he registered the boat it doesn't matter as long as it's EU vat paid

 

[Tranona]

Exactly. This is the simplest scenario. The key for the boat is its VAT paid status an d from what you say the boat can stay in the EU indefinitely. It does not have to be French registered and as a UK resident you are entitled to put it on the SSR even though it will never be in the UK. You can take it out of the EU and return as you wish, but of course as a UK resident you can't bring it into the UK for even a day without being liable to pay VAT.

Be aware though that you may get questioned more frequently with a UK flag by officials who might be unable to differentiate between VAT paid status and flag of registration so make sure you keep all the original French documents and the deregistration as that is your proof of EU VAT paid status.

On a slightly negative note if you go to Greece you may be treated differently because they have just introduced a law that requires "third country" boats to report in every tome they visit a new port, but it is perhaps unclear whether this defines Third country as state of registration of VAT paid status, but I suspect the former. If so, another nail in the coffin for Greece as a cruising destination.

 

[westernman]

If the boat is kept on the French flag you will have to pay the yearly francisation tax. If the boat is not french registered and as you are neither a french citizen nor french resident you will not have to pay either the francisation tax nor the passeport tax which a french resident would have to pay for a non french registered boat.

For sailing boat less than 15m with a small engine you might decide it is worth keeping it on the french registry. (e.g. for easy resale). You can work out the tax from here:-
La taxe annuelle sur les engins maritimes à usage personnel

If you have a gin palace over 15m long with twin 13 litre engines (i.e. over 50CV each), then the tax is worth avoiding.

 

[RupertW]

As I said where ever he registered the boat it doesn't matter as long as it's EU vat paid

Are you really sure about that. Yes, that’s the legal position that everyone agreed would be the case post-Brexit. But I keep hearing reports of people with EU VAT paid yachts (many of which have never been near the UK) being treated differently by officials because they are non-EU flagged under SSR. In Greece being made to get transit logs, in Spain being asked to reregustee or being put on an 18 month clock.

Its no good being legally correct if officials are going to fight you all the way. I hope this settles down to the right rules being implemented or we may just get Polish registration for an easier life.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Are you really sure about that. Yes, that’s the legal position that everyone agreed would be the case post-Brexit. But I keep hearing reports of people with EU VAT paid yachts (many of which have never been near the UK) being treated differently by officials because they are non-EU flagged under SSR. In Greece being made to get transit logs, in Spain being asked to reregustee or being put on an 18 month clock.

Its no good being legally correct if officials are going to fight you all the way. I hope this settles down to the right rules being implemented or we may just get Polish registration for an easier life.

Rupert that's the rule but as you say official interpretation can be way out and probably what matters is who you get on the day .
Although as may who met and know me I'm one who would argue till the sun comes down if I was sure I was in the right .
Normally it's enough that when someone stand up to officials I found many a times they type of give in by saying some thing like , this is the law but this time we let it go , wish I had a pound for every time that's been said to me in Greece .
I'm not sure how much rules are followed in most countries we found very few care,
People who seen to have problems are tho who go looking for it,
Everytime I had conversations with tho who had problem it all stems from them going to the officialls not the other way around,
My Moto as always been keep your head down and don't go looking for trouble, once you open that can of worms you won't be able to close it.

On the other side , we left the EU since 2020 for no more then 15 weeks in all that time.
No one question it .
This year we left Sicily in March after selling up , returned to the UK for three weeks brought another boat in that that time and now back in the EU since April still no one bothered us ,
It's now mid Aug.
A couple of motor boat (Brits ) we met in the Netherlands we ask how they got on with checking in both said no one looked at any papers just stamp passport , all very nice and welcoming .
It's more stressful filling in forms to leave the UK one had it return twice and still not sure if it's been excepted.
He stress out about going back.

 

[Tranona]

Are you really sure about that. Yes, that’s the legal position that everyone agreed would be the case post-Brexit. But I keep hearing reports of people with EU VAT paid yachts (many of which have never been near the UK) being treated differently by officials because they are non-EU flagged under SSR. In Greece being made to get transit logs, in Spain being asked to reregustee or being put on an 18 month clock.

Its no good being legally correct if officials are going to fight you all the way. I hope this settles down to the right rules being implemented or we may just get Polish registration for an easier life.

Don't know about Spain, but Greece is a national law that requires reporting at every stop, and as I said from the brief announcement it is not clear whether they are defining "third country" as registration or VAT status. EU VAT paid status gives the right of free movement of the boat across the EU, and this is EU law. There have already been case taken to the Commission (by the Cruising Association of states (Croatia and Greece not surprisingly) not applying the law correctly.

There is nothing in EU law that requires an EU VAT paid boat to be registered in an EU state and if Spain is applying TA rules to EU VAT paid boats it is not EU law correctly.

One might expect "teething" troubles, particularly in states where application of rules is devolved to local officials who maybe have a limited understanding of what the rules are. The way EU law is constructed seems to be designed to create such situations!

 

[Portofino]

Use your sister for now .Pay the small tax .
You never know what’s round the corner with Brussels tit for tat sore looser attitude, make an example ethos .

Once the cloudy water clear then reassess.

 

[ChromeDome]

Some EU countries have no tax on boats. Sweden, Denmark...

VAT at all times governed by EU rules (you need to pay VAT once only, so if done in a country with low VAT still ok for all EU countries). This is why boats imported from e.g. the US are imported to a low VAT rate EU country. Once paid, VAT is settled for all EU coutries.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If as the op said it's under French flag VAT would had been paid so he got no worries there

 

[westernman]

If as the op said it's under French flag VAT would had been paid so he got no worries there

But as I said above, if you keep it under the French flag there is a yearly tax to pay.

For a sailing boat under 15m with a small engine it is not going to break the bank.
A large motor yacht over 15m with large engines (total over 100CV which is something like two 13 litre engines), then the tax is around 7000 euros per year. OK - it is peanuts compare to what that boat will use in fuel.....

For some one who is not resident in France this can be avoided by registering the boat in the UK on the SSR.
For some one who is resident in France, you cannot escape paying this tax regardless as to where the boat is registered (the tax amount stays exactly the same, but the name of the tax changes).

 

[sailaboutvic]

But as I said above, if you keep it under the French flag there is a yearly tax to pay.

For a sailing boat under 15m with a small engine it is not going to break the bank.
A large motor yacht over 15m with large engines (total over 100CV which is something like two 13 litre engines), then the tax is around 7000 euros per year. OK - it is peanuts compare to what that boat will use in fuel.....

For some one who is not resident in France this can be avoided by registering the boat in the UK on the SSR.
For some one who is resident in France, you cannot escape paying this tax regardless as to where the boat is registered (the tax amount stays exactly the same, but the name of the tax changes).

French tax see #2 this was mention then.
Agree best bet would be SSR

 

[Airscrew]

Many thanks to you all for this thoughtful and helpful info.

The target yacht is a Wauquiez PS47.
It is a fraction under 15m.
Right now there is one in France, and one in Italy.
Heading out next week to look at both.

We have a share of a yacht based in Greece, and on the UK SSR.
At a fraction under the magic 12m, TEPAI is about Eu350.

The PS47 would be over Eu1200 in Greece, but i think only Eu458 for the French DAFN.
Its not a direct comparison, but we already pay about GB160 annually for Hamble river harbour dues for an 8m Westerly (which will sadly have to go).
Whilst 458 is far from cheap, I am inclined to keep it on the French Flag, as we will probably only keep it for 5 or so years, and sell it in France where most of the interest will probably be.

Also, our experience with Greek port officials has, on a few occasions, been problematic even though our paperwork is always correct.
It seems that some of them dont fully understand the rules, or they dont like the 'flag', or both.
In anecdotal conversations with various 'neighbour yachts around Greece, with NL, FR or SW flags, they havent ever heard of a paperwork problem in Greece.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Many thanks to you all for this thoughtful and helpful info.

The target yacht is a Wauquiez PS47.
It is a fraction under 15m.
Right now there is one in France, and one in Italy.
Heading out next week to look at both.

We have a share of a yacht based in Greece, and on the UK SSR.
At a fraction under the magic 12m, TEPAI is about Eu350.

The PS47 would be over Eu1200 in Greece, but i think only Eu458 for the French DAFN.
Its not a direct comparison, but we already pay about GB160 annually for Hamble river harbour dues for an 8m Westerly (which will sadly have to go).
Whilst 458 is far from cheap, I am inclined to keep it on the French Flag, as we will probably only keep it for 5 or so years, and sell it in France where most of the interest will probably be.

Also, our experience with Greek port officials has, on a few occasions, been problematic even though our paperwork is always correct.
It seems that some of them dont fully understand the rules, or they dont like the 'flag', or both.
In anecdotal conversations with various 'neighbour yachts around Greece, with NL, FR or SW flags, they havent ever heard of a paperwork problem in Greece.

Stand around the PP office and you see everyone has problems .
Unless things have change the Greek cruising tax for over 12 mts is €8 per metre per month
14x8x12 .
If it's not used you be able to claim the months it's no in used but papers need to be handed in the the PP

 

[Chris_Robb]

On a slightly negative note if you go to Greece you may be treated differently because they have just introduced a law that requires "third country" boats to report in every tome they visit a new port, but it is perhaps unclear whether this defines Third country as state of registration of VAT paid status, but I suspect the former. If so, another nail in the coffin for Greece as a cruising destination.

The law on 3rd country flags has been around since 1953. The law you refer to published this year is just part of the updated replacement laws following the repeal of the 1953 shipping laws which were described as not fit for purpose. The replacement law deals with Port authority actions on checking transit logs etc.

Its a shame that the law is in conflict with the Customs rules that came into existence with Brexit. This stated (and is in accordance with the UCC) that EU Goods (ie Vat paid yachts) will have NO Customs procedures - ie will not be issued with a Transit Log.

If you now extend the principle of what the UCC says for yachts using RGR, it states again that there will be NO Customs procedures for EU Goods. This is because any form of documentation or actions on EU Goods is contrary to the rights of Free circulation., hence, the Greeks said this for yachts IN EU Waters at 31st Dec 2020. What the Greeks did not realise when this decision was taken, was that we were entitled to RGR - which they had not realised.

So we are in midflight in putting another complaint together to the EU.. This will be presented if meeting with our embassy and the AADE dont get anywhere. But the logic of the No Transit Log I think will persuade them that this applies all the time to all EU Goods.

Work in progress - but we are also pushing for the TL to be applied ONLY to Vat NOT Paid yachts - this means that all our commonwealth cousins who bought Vat paid yachts will also benefit if we win!

To the OP - get the SSR, these matters I truly believe are transient, and effects on insurance (who would want to sue a European insurer in their local courts) an other unknown issue about the future of the Polish flag which I am sure will be stamped on soon.