Yachtmaster Standards

[Lady Campanula]

Why was I mildly surprised to note there's a Wikipedia entry for this.....?

Of course, it must be right, accurate, and bang up to date.....

I'm not part of the structure, but I'm aware of the Yachtmaster Qualifications Panel. They set the standards. Having met a couple of 'em over the years, I'm aware these bods are no fools.

There is constant pressure, some of it commercial, to water down the standards. Who would benefit from that? Changes to requirements do occur - I'm glad I no longer need to do Morse Code or draw my own synoptic charts from a scribbled-down Shipping Forecast with CSRs - but surely the direction should be towards raising the bar....? And surely would-be holders of such certificates should have an interest in higher standards.

So, forumeers, what higher standards would you think appropriate to today's seas? A simulator checkride of ColRegs Practical Interpretation? An Emergency Repairs and Maintenance Module? Questions and Answers Test on Basic Law of the Sea?

What knowledge and demonstrable skills should you expect of a modern Yachtmaster Offshore?

 

[Elessar]

Why was I mildly surprised to note there's a Wikipedia entry for this.....?

Of course, it must be right, accurate, and bang up to date.....

I'm not part of the structure, but I'm aware of the Yachtmaster Qualifications Panel. They set the standards. Having met a couple of 'em over the years, I'm aware these bods are no fools.

There is constant pressure, some of it commercial, to water down the standards. Who would benefit from that? Changes to requirements do occur - I'm glad I no longer need to do Morse Code or draw my own synoptic charts from a scribbled-down Shipping Forecast with CSRs - but surely the direction should be towards raising the bar....? And surely would-be holders of such certificates should have an interest in higher standards.

So, forumeers, what higher standards would you think appropriate to today's seas? A simulator checkride of ColRegs Practical Interpretation? An Emergency Repairs and Maintenance Module? Questions and Answers Test on Basic Law of the Sea?

What knowledge and demonstrable skills should you expect of a modern Yachtmaster Offshore?

I would add:

More knowledge of the electronics on which a modern boat relies. Even if your boat doesn't, yachtmaster shouldnt mean good at driving my boat.

For sail, helmsman level power, for power competant crew level sail.

How to cobble a fix both electrical and mechanical and not rely on seastart ir the rnli.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I don't think that the bar has been lowered to be honest. What I would like to see is not changes in the syllabus but some changes in the examination method.

There should be a minimum number of set pieces that each candidate has to perform to demonstrate competence in those areas. The obvious examples are MOB, mooring under sail and / or anchoring. The same for navigation: fix and tidal heights.

The set pieces must be limited in number leaving the Examiner to establish competence through observation as currently performed.

It is unfortunate but I have seen instructors not being able to pick moorings under sail in a tideway, completely ignorant of what has happening despite a number of external indicators. You would be gob smacked if I told you who the assessor was that passed this instructor. Don't ask, because I wont tell.

There is or was a phrase in one of the guidance booklets that the RYA produce "must be able to give a convincing demonstration of ......... under sail." I am not convinced.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Having observed quite a few exams, the standard is very variable anyway - it depends which examiner you get, and how he feels on the night.

Seems to me the big dilemma for examiners is this: Is this a professional qualification or not? If it's a professional qualification you need to be rigorously satisfied that the candidate is completely competent and safe, whereas if it's an amateur qualification (which is how it originated - wasn't it?) you can encourage genuine talent even if the the candidate isn't perfect.

I would be very interested to hear what examiners think about this. I've seen both approaches applied in exams ...

As to additional knowledge - probably more emphasis on how the yacht works and how to fix stuff if you need to. It's a big part of being a real skipper, under-emphasised in the training scheme. Not necessarily electronics - if you can carry on without your fancy modern electronics, that's fair enough isn't it?

 

[Elessar]

As to additional knowledge - probably more emphasis on how the yacht works and how to fix stuff if you need to. It's a big part of being a real skipper, under-emphasised in the training scheme. Not necessarily electronics - if you can carry on without your fancy modern electronics, that's fair enough isn't it?

i didn't necessarily mean nav electronics, though the autopilot is very important if short handed.

even nav lights are sometimes on an electronic bus these days, as are engines and that was what I was getting at.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... Seems to me the big dilemma for examiners is this: Is this a professional qualification or not? ....

Well if that is their dilemma then they are confused and perhaps the issue is with the Examiners and not the syllabus. It is a Certificate of Competency and as such whether the Certificate will be used by amateurs or professionals is irrelevant: the standard of competency should be consistent at time of examination.

Apparently the whole reason that it is a Certificate of Competence (and why it used to look liked the old Board of Trade certificates, was to provide a cadre of skilled persons to run small vessels in time of war; the professional skippers being engaged in activities to support a war effort.

Times have obviously changed and the need is now different but the standard should still be very high and the competence demonstration the key. The way it is examined is old fashioned, it is the Examiners that have to change.

 

[binch]

Exams

It is a long time since I had any experience of the yachtmaster.
My crit is that the school that taught the candidate can pass him.
This means that sailing schools have a strong incentive to pass entrants,

A young relative of mine went to Gib to take a course and passed. Frankly, this should not have happened. That relative is much better now, several years later, but att the time of passing, was pretty hopeless.

When originally introduced as a Board of Trade qualification in the sixxties (the RYA had nothing to do with it at that time) I ran an evening class at Maidstone. The syllabus was extraordinary: knowledge of magnetism nearly up to compass adjuster level, and no practical exam whatsoever. I gave it up. It was a farce. It was several years after that the RYA stepped in and got a retired naval officer to set the syllabus. It showed.
Is it better now?

 

[capnsensible]

For those interested, the Conduct of Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster Offshore exams are clearly laid out in RYA publicationG27/04. Instructors handbook.

These examinations have no distinction between 'commercial' and 'pleasure'. It is an examination of competence at the level and nothing more.

A succesful candidate may then wish to fulfill the additional requirements for the certificate to be commercially endorsed. Nothing to do with the exam.

 

[capnsensible]

The school that teaches a student cannot pass them. The school book an independant examiner. The decision is his, not the schools.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

For those interested, the Conduct of Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster Offshore exams are clearly laid out in RYA publicationG27/04. Instructors handbook.

These examinations have no distinction between 'commercial' and 'pleasure'. It is an examination of competence at the level and nothing more.

A succesful candidate may then wish to fulfill the additional requirements for the certificate to be commercially endorsed. Nothing to do with the exam.

In an ideal world you are undoubtedly correct.

In practice, I have seen different standards applied depending on how the examiners thought the candidate was going to use the qualification.

Examining a practical exam requires judgement. The Instructor's handbook makes this point: "...the examiner must balance strengths and weaknesses when coming to a pass/fail decision" . It's only human to wonder whether this person is just about to go off and get a commercial endorsement and then be in charge of other people's yachts and paying customers, young and old - or whether they will go off and spend their time gaining more experience on their own yacht.

 

[Elessar]

The school that teaches a student cannot pass them. The school book an independant examiner. The decision is his, not the schools.

correct

course completion certs are issued by the school including theory certificates.

the distinction of YM, coastal, offshore and ocean, is that it is examined.

And a school that issues certificates willy nilly will be found out, there is a system of inspection of schools.

 

[Elessar]

In an ideal world you are undoubtedly correct.

In practice, I have seen different standards applied depending on how the examiners thought the candidate was going to use the qualification.

Examining a practical exam requires judgement. The Instructor's handbook makes this point: "...the examiner must balance strengths and weaknesses when coming to a pass/fail decision" . It's only human to wonder whether this person is just about to go off and get a commercial endorsement and then be in charge of other people's yachts and paying customers, young and old - or whether they will go off and spend their time gaining more experience on their own yacht.

You can look at the detail all you like.

The thing is, when you get in a car with someone, you know instinctively if you are comfortable or not. The driver can cock up a 3 point turn but you still feel safe.

The YM examiner is bound to put more or less weight on individual details depending on the impression of competence that he gets. Less tangible but OK within set boundaries surely.

 

[doris]

Choice of examiner

When I did my YM the choice of examiner was down to the instructor/ school.

The examiner gets paid to examine. If he is known to be a hard task master then the schools will not ring him. If this is still how it is done this is still wrong. The RYA should allocate an examiner with the schools having no say on the matter. That way there is no financial pressure on the examiner to pass anyone and we have an objective exam.

 

[capnsensible]

In an ideal world you are undoubtedly correct.

In practice, I have seen different standards applied depending on how the examiners thought the candidate was going to use the qualification.

Examining a practical exam requires judgement. The Instructor's handbook makes this point: "...the examiner must balance strengths and weaknesses when coming to a pass/fail decision" . It's only human to wonder whether this person is just about to go off and get a commercial endorsement and then be in charge of other people's yachts and paying customers, young and old - or whether they will go off and spend their time gaining more experience on their own yacht.

Interesting that some examiners apply different standards to the exam requirements.

Happily, the ones I have used over many years make no such distinction in their assessments!

 

[capnsensible]

When I did my YM the choice of examiner was down to the instructor/ school.

The examiner gets paid to examine. If he is known to be a hard task master then the schools will not ring him. If this is still how it is done this is still wrong. The RYA should allocate an examiner with the schools having no say on the matter. That way there is no financial pressure on the examiner to pass anyone and we have an objective exam.

There is no financial pressure on the examiner, he is completely independent from any dealings with the candidate.

Please be assured that booking an examiner is solely based on availability!

' I am applying for the job as Handyman'

'Can you paint, sweep up or saw wood'

'No'

'Well whats handy about you then?'

' I live round the corner.....'

 

[Poignard]

You can look at the detail all you like.

The thing is, when you get in a car with someone, you know instinctively if you are comfortable or not. The driver can cock up a 3 point turn but you still feel safe.

The YM examiner is bound to put more or less weight on individual details depending on the impression of competence that he gets. Less tangible but OK within set boundaries surely.

I think that's true, and that's how it should be.

He should be capable of distinguishing between a fool who will never be any use or someone who, despite not having done too well during part of the exam, will continue to learn from his mistakes and improve.

 

[alant]

It is a long time since I had any experience of the yachtmaster.
My crit is that the school that taught the candidate can pass him.
This means that sailing schools have a strong incentive to pass entrants,

A young relative of mine went to Gib to take a course and passed. Frankly, this should not have happened. That relative is much better now, several years later, but att the time of passing, was pretty hopeless.

When originally introduced as a Board of Trade qualification in the sixxties (the RYA had nothing to do with it at that time) I ran an evening class at Maidstone. The syllabus was extraordinary: knowledge of magnetism nearly up to compass adjuster level, and no practical exam whatsoever. I gave it up. It was a farce. It was several years after that the RYA stepped in and got a retired naval officer to set the syllabus. It showed.
Is it better now?

How can the instructing school pass anyone for a YMO ticket?

The examiner is external & should be independant!

 

[Lady Campanula]

As indicated before, I'm not a member of the elite cadre of YM Examiners, so I have no 'personal or prejudicial interest'. I am aware that all of 'em I've met are deeply experienced, personally competent, and quite individualistic. It is natural that emphasis will vary, and it is also reasonable that the RYA, as proxy for the MCA, will seek to 'standardise' as much as is reasonable. This is done through Examiners' Assessments and, I believe, Bulletins and Conferences. I'm aware that certain Examiners have their prejudices. Persuading them to alter their ways is an uphill struggle....

There are strengths and there are weaknesses in the approach of every assessor or examiner, in every walk of life. 'Standardisation' or 'validation' keeps a lot of training specialists in issues to wrangle about. Here are a couple of examples, from my own observations:

One bright and enthusiastic young professional, with whom I'd sailed several times, invested time and money in evening classes in London, then in a Day Skipper 1-week's course with a sea school on the Solent. Came the assessments, and the 'by numbers' examiner with a Joint Services' background and a Pirbright parade square attitude. My young friend was asked to plan end execute a night passage between two ports in the Solent. I've seen the plan - it was detailed, accurate, and fine. He was asked at one point in the night passage if he thought he could safely pass ahead of a ferry or merchant vessel, and he declined, passing instead safely behind. He was sneered at.... Some of the seamark lights he couldn't identify with certainty. He was 'failed'.

The debrief was, apparently, scathing. For a Day Skipper certificate of competence.....

Another friend, with whom I've sailed several thousand miles over several years, has a 37' catamaran which he had Coded and chartered out via a prominent Plymouth agent. He's competent, he's meticulous, and he's keen as mustard. During a YM exam, he was asked to short-tack his cat, at night and in the rain, up through the moorings in the Cattewater off Mountbatten. The wind was gusting hard, swirling down off and between the hangers, with violent changes of direction. He declined, and sailed the boat, with several tacks, up clear of the lines of unlit moored boats. One of his enduring problems is that he stammers - badly. He's not uncertain - he just has communication challenges, and those who sail with him learn to accommodate that. The examiner made much of this ''inadequacy' in the debrief, when he 'failed' him. I know my stuff ( on most days ) and he is one of the most reliable and aware skippers I've sailed with in recent years.

Yes, there may have been more to it on both occasions. No, I don't think the National Training Scheme was shown in the best light and, no, neither of them ever put their hands in their pockets for the RYA again.

 

[ukmctc]

I just met a bloke who has passed his yacht masters theory and didn't put pen to paper.
He is now and has been for a few years a charter boat skipper!
He does delivery and olther jobs, its people like this who know people that make you ask if its worth the bother.

 

[Lady Campanula]

I just met a bloke who has passed his yacht masters theory and didn't put pen to paper.

That won't please the rest of us who've done this stuff 'by the book'. I don't suppose the RYA Training Manager will be much pleased to hear of this, either.