Yachtmaster Ocean Qualifying Passage

Angele said:
As I understand it, it is not an absolute requirement that the sextant sights required for the Ocean oral exam are taken on the QP, but that there are still some absolute nono's if they aren't and I took Quiddle as just giving the criteria that must apply for the sextant stuff if not done during the QP - namely that bobbing up and down in the Solent was a non-starter. You actually have to go over the horizon.
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For sure. There was some wriggle room for well qualified candidates that hadnt taken good sights during their qualifying passages and needed to do more. Some schools absolutely took the mickey out of it and those that tried that bit harder didnt get the customers.

Nowadays, when I put together a sights course, I will always talk to the examiner first who may then take advice from the RYA Manager so we are all crystal clear before taking someones hard earned dough.

The other side of the coin is the high percentage of people who put themselves up for the exam on mileage without really understanding the astro. Which realistically can only be learned proficiently on a longer passage.....

I reckon the RYA has addressed this and standards are now back where they should be. In my opinion!
 
capnsensible said:
For sure. There was some wriggle room for well qualified candidates that hadnt taken good sights during their qualifying passages and needed to do more. Some schools absolutely took the mickey out of it and those that tried that bit harder didnt get the customers.

Nowadays, when I put together a sights course, I will always talk to the examiner first who may then take advice from the RYA Manager so we are all crystal clear before taking someones hard earned dough.

The other side of the coin is the high percentage of people who put themselves up for the exam on mileage without really understanding the astro. Which realistically can only be learned proficiently on a longer passage.....

I reckon the RYA has addressed this and standards are now back where they should be. In my opinion!
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Exactly right.

When I took my oral board for my YM Ocean the sights I submitted were from the Med’ but I’d sailed several thousand miles in the Atlantic to qualify.

I was appointed an examiner years later and recently had a candidate who had the relevant ocean passage but tried to show me the workings of some sights from an exam practice paper as ‘his sights’. He freely admitted he hadn’t actually used a sextant to get the figures and hadn’t got an almanac or the tables to go with the results.
 
capnsensible said:
For sure. There was some wriggle room for well qualified candidates that hadnt taken good sights during their qualifying passages and needed to do more. Some schools absolutely took the mickey out of it and those that tried that bit harder didnt get the customers.

Nowadays, when I put together a sights course, I will always talk to the examiner first who may then take advice from the RYA Manager so we are all crystal clear before taking someones hard earned dough.

The other side of the coin is the high percentage of people who put themselves up for the exam on mileage without really understanding the astro. Which realistically can only be learned proficiently on a longer passage.....

I reckon the RYA has addressed this and standards are now back where they should be. In my opinion!
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None of my QPs were done on boats with a sextant on board. The examiner told me this was no problem at all.
 
capnsensible said:
Thats the kind of loophole being addressed.
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I don't know why - doing sights is probably the least important aspect about being a competent ocean yachtmaster.

I'd love to re-examine OYMasters ten years after their exam, and see how many could still do a sun/run/sun with the sort of competence and ease that would ensure it was still a viable backup in extremis.

I haven't opened my sextant box since the early 90s and think I would struggle despite using it professionally through the 70s and 80s.
 
Motor_Sailor said:
I don't know why - doing sights is probably the least important aspect about being a competent ocean yachtmaster.

I'd love to re-examine OYMasters ten years after their exam, and see how many could still do a sun/run/sun with the sort of competence and ease that would ensure it was still a viable backup in extremis.

I haven't opened my sextant box since the early 90s and think I would struggle despite using it professionally through the 70s and 80s.
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Possibly some truth in that. But if lightening strikes and you lose everything electronic except time, the fact that you’d reduced sights before would mean that you’d sort out some sort of position before too long. Your position lines might be only good to ten miles or more, but with care you’d make landfall safely. Skill fade doesn’t mean skill total loss.

PS. I get the sextant out through boredom nowadays.
 
john_morris_uk said:
. . . and you lose everything electronic except time . . .
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Why wouldn't you lose time? Most boats don't carry a calibrated chronometer - they use GPS or some other electronic 'thing' to give the time. And if the hypothetical lightning strike has taken out every GPS, it will have toasted the HF radio used to get the time signals.

I think the chances that a handheld GPS in a tupperware box with a supply of AA batteries would stand a greater chance of being usable rather than the paper copies of almanacs and reduction tables that have been on board for years. Mike Richey had to accept the offer to abandon Jester because his astro paper work was sodden and un-usable. If only he had a back up GPS.
 
Motor_Sailor said:
Why wouldn't you lose time? Most boats don't carry a calibrated chronometer - they use GPS or some other electronic 'thing' to give the time. And if the hypothetical lightning strike has taken out every GPS, it will have toasted the HF radio used to get the time signals.

I think the chances that a handheld GPS in a tupperware box with a supply of AA batteries would stand a greater chance of being usable rather than the paper copies of almanacs and reduction tables that have been on board for years. Mike Richey had to accept the offer to abandon Jester because his astro paper work was sodden and un-usable. If only he had a back up GPS.
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There’s always one isn’t there...

You can get your latitude without time.

Anyway, the watch on my wrist is mechanical and is a certified chronometer so I’ll raise you a timepiece.
 
Motor_Sailor said:
I don't know why - doing sights is probably the least important aspect about being a competent ocean yachtmaster.

I'd love to re-examine OYMasters ten years after their exam, and see how many could still do a sun/run/sun with the sort of competence and ease that would ensure it was still a viable backup in extremis.

I haven't opened my sextant box since the early 90s and think I would struggle despite using it professionally through the 70s and 80s.
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You can argue the toss about this until you turn purple. Facts of the matter are that a candidate for Yachtmaster Ocean has to demonstrate a high degree of self sufficiency and an understanding of the natural world that surrounds us.

Most people successfully navigate across oceans without that knowledge, no problem. But if you want to learn a new skill, or as so many in the Professional Boats Industry do, require it for advancement or commercial reasons, then its a very useful thing to understand.

The aim of the training and certification is clear. Those that choose not to keep their skills up to date is a personal decision and doesnt affect in the slightest sunrise and sunset.......
 
Motor_Sailor said:
I think the chances that a handheld GPS in a tupperware box with a supply of AA batteries would stand a greater chance of being usable rather than the paper copies of almanacs and reduction tables that have been on board for years. Mike Richey had to accept the offer to abandon Jester because his astro paper work was sodden and un-usable. If only he had a back up GPS.
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Should have kept his 'astro paperwork' in a few tupperware boxes, eh? :rolleyes:
 
This evangelical zeal about some arcane technology to mitigate minuscule odds is uncanningly similar to those who advocate a steel hull as a necessity to offset the chances of hitting something or running aground on reefs.
 
Motor_Sailor said:
This evangelical zeal about some arcane technology to mitigate minuscule odds is uncanningly similar to those who advocate a steel hull as a necessity to offset the chances of hitting something or running aground on reefs.
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Nothing to do with that whatsoever. Poor try, but typical in its forum tactics. :)
 
It’s worth remembering that RYA issues the YM Ocean Cert of Comp on behalf of the MCA. The MCA has to approve that the qualification meets the requirements laid down by the United Nations and cascaded down through national governments. So there’s no point whining about RYA archaic syllabus, that’s just shooting the messenger.

A question to those that may know, when presenting a sun-run-sun, what’s the usual scenario for establishing the initial DR position? In other words, is it expected that the candidate runs a full DR log from the last fix or simply uses the GPS to then establish the AP/CP for sight reduction? Would it be more realistic to show a days run DR to simulate GPS failure and cloudy skies rather than taking a quick look at the GPS to get the first position?

When I did my QP, I kept a complete DR log (in parallel with the GPS primary) out of interest and, as mentioned by JM, to give me something to do during a long passage.
 
I've found that people learn far more and understand the subject much better if you turn the GPS off.

You can take a departure fix with a Hand Bearing Compass or if you are on a long passage for training, plot a GPS fix, turn it off and then DR for your sights, which is what its all about. Breathes life into the whole thing!
 
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Off the coast of Spain in a November storm, main GPS failed and then two hand helds also gave up.

Too many clouds for sun sights, but the sextant was essential in giving us an accurate distance off of a singular lighthouse to safely approach a harbour. Failing this we would have headed back out to sea.

When you have the sun and a sextant you don't even need tables to give you a pretty good longitude, as long as you know the time. So not essential but I wouldn't sail any distance without one.
 
capnsensible said:
Thats the kind of loophole being addressed.
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In what way is/ was it a loophole? It is specifically stated in the RYA syllabus that sights need not be taken on the QP. How is it a greater demonstration of skill to be able to do a sun run sun mid atlantic than 50 miles off Ushant?
TBH, your defence of the sextent as an essential navigational tool is reminiscent of the typesetters in Fleet Street.
 
Quiddle said:
In what way is/ was it a loophole? It is specifically stated in the RYA syllabus that sights need not be taken on the QP. How is it a greater demonstration of skill to be able to do a sun run sun mid atlantic than 50 miles off Ushant?
TBH, your defence of the sextent as an essential navigational tool is reminiscent of the typesetters in Fleet Street.
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Because of the inaccuracies of a DR over long periods.

Please point out where I have said it is an essential navigational tool. :rolleyes:

It is important to those in the Yachting Industry who seek advancement in MCA qualifications for larger vessels.

Otherwise its entirely up to you whether you can be arsed or not.
 
Praxinoscope said:
Well I did all that and from 2 miles off the Finistere lighthouse to Milford Haven is 650 nm on the log, with Lands End being the first land we saw after 9 days, it’s just that I messed up on my sextant work, so never applied.
We originally planned for the Azores but after being hit by bad weather we lost too much time so just turned left and went to Spain instead.
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Best thing would be to write down all the details with reference to the link about the qualifying passage and email it to the RYA Training Manager. He will give you the decision. Its better to be clear and save you shelling out your hard earned to be disappointed. :encouragement:
 
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