Yachtmaster ocean - on line course?

I did the YMO shorebased course last winter, but not distance (Internet) based. I enjoyed it. Now I should complete with a qualifying voyage, and had one planned, but find that there's a rule about that passage. It must be go from A to B by the shortest navigable route along the Rhum line, and be at least 600 nM.
But I found that if you leave from point A and return to point A, no matter how far you go that doesn't qualify. So I guess a circumnavigation where departure and arrival point were the same and it was non-stop, then that would not qualify.
 
laika said:
..... My memory of the Langley-Price and Ouvrey one could be suspect but I recall it had more detail than the cunliffe one but not enough to come away from it with a good understanding of spherical trigonometry
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I think you’re probably right. I did the course in 2007 one-to-one with a retired Master Mariner. I did it intensive over a week and was pretty numb by the end. In order to consolidate what I should have learned, I bought both Cumliffe and Langley-Price and Ouvrey to repeat it at my own pace. I certainly remember the Ureka moment when I realised that AP3270 vol 2 & 3 are simply spherical trig tables using the arguments of Lat, Dec and LHA. Not sure if I read this somewhere or figured it out by myself.
 
I recently bought David Burch's book 'Celestial Navigation A Complete Home Study Course.' Not yet read it properly, but it looks like even I could understand the text. Bought from Wordery for about half the price of some fleabay sellers.
 
I did the yacht master ocean course a few years ago just out of interest. I was persuaded to sign up by my pal who was struggling for numbers to enable the course to run. I thoroughly enjoyed it and the shared experience; I don't think I would have stuck it as an online course and certainly not gained so much as the evening class course. I've never actually used the astro but gained satisfaction from understanding the principles. We used various text books but I found Tom Cunliffe easiest to follow.
 
Quiddle said:
I did YMO theory online this year and wish I hadn't, though I did pass.
Tutor support was rapid but hardly tailored to my queries : just a reiteration of the online explanation. I also found that copy and paste was used to excess in the training material with many consequent errors. Even after bringing these to the attention of my tutor they remained in the training material. It would have been great to have direct practical instructions on sextant use and, after the course, my access to all course materials ceased, so preventing the occasional bit of revision. I tried to get around this with screen grabs but it was a cumbersome process.
I used one of the providers mentioned by the OP (I won't say which as it would be unfair to single them out.) I used to develop and deliver online training and I have to say I was distinctly unimpressed with my YMO experience which also compared unfavourably with the RYA's online PPR course, if you have taken that.
The only reason I didnt do a traditional YMO was the distance to my nearest provider. With hindsight the travel and accommodation would have been worthwhile.
I also used Cunliffe's book which contained all the info I needed but some of the explanations were a bit rushed.
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Can you PM the name. I do prefer to have a dialog with a tutor and if all they do is cut and past I'd never learn anything.
 
Quiddle said:
I did YMO theory online this year and wish I hadn't, though I did pass.
Tutor support was rapid but hardly tailored to my queries : just a reiteration of the online explanation. I also found that copy and paste was used to excess in the training material with many consequent errors. Even after bringing these to the attention of my tutor they remained in the training material. It would have been great to have direct practical instructions on sextant use and, after the course, my access to all course materials ceased, so preventing the occasional bit of revision. I tried to get around this with screen grabs but it was a cumbersome process.
I used one of the providers mentioned by the OP (I won't say which as it would be unfair to single them out.) I used to develop and deliver online training and I have to say I was distinctly unimpressed with my YMO experience which also compared unfavourably with the RYA's online PPR course, if you have taken that.
The only reason I didnt do a traditional YMO was the distance to my nearest provider. With hindsight the travel and accommodation would have been worthwhile.
I also used Cunliffe's book which contained all the info I needed but some of the explanations were a bit rushed.
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davidjackson said:
I think you’re probably right. I did the course in 2007 one-to-one with a retired Master Mariner. I did it intensive over a week and was pretty numb by the end. In order to consolidate what I should have learned, I bought both Cumliffe and Langley-Price and Ouvrey to repeat it at my own pace. I certainly remember the Ureka moment when I realised that AP3270 vol 2 & 3 are simply spherical trig tables using the arguments of Lat, Dec and LHA. Not sure if I read this somewhere or figured it out by myself.
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Is it necessary to use tables for the spherical trig for the exam? Since I can do this on a £10 solar powered scientific calculator from Tesco I reckon I could have several in plastic bags and I would still be navigating despite Satellite Armageddon. I dont mind learning to use the tables but it makes sense to me to practice calculator.

Also I wrote a python script to do the ephemeris and spherical trig. Python has an ephem library so it was quite easy. I expect in practice at sea I will use either this or the excellent spreadsheets of Henning Umland (which implement ephemeris in javascript). Maybe I have to do it the old school way for my qualifying passage?
 
There are programmes around for calculators but very much in my opinion I think it kinda defeats the object. Or maybe I just find the tables easy to use with practice and more involved with the result.

It would probably take me longer to learn to use the calculator!
 
capnsensible said:
There are programmes around for calculators but very much in my opinion I think it kinda defeats the object. Or maybe I just find the tables easy to use with practice and more involved with the result.

It would probably take me longer to learn to use the calculator!
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There are two distinct schools of opinion on calculator versus tables. Both will be destroyed by water if not in a good plastic bag both will survive if they are.

I am sure it is good to practice one method until you can do it when cold and sick and all mathematical ability deserts you!

For me I like the calculator method as it makes me sure to udnerstand what I am doing (and I like to take the lid of everything). I disagree (and its only an opionon) that cheap solar powered calculators "defeat the object". GPS and GLONASS are navigational aides provided only by the generosity of the US and Russian military. They can and will be turned off or degraded in time of conflict. But the generals do not have a way to reach in to my plastic bag and destroy all my cheap calculators.

Programmable calculators are a bit of an anachronism in my opinion. They are more expensive than cheap scientific school style calculators and for the price you can buy several cheap, maybe even waterproof, Chinese Android smart phones on which you can run ephemeris and spherical trigonometry easily (obviously without a network). You can also get cheap solar powered chargers for them.

Sorry I am diverting my own thread. (slaps himself). Really value the recommendations of people who have taken the on line courses. Anyone got one where they had a really positive experience?
 
Appledore said:
I recently bought David Burch's book 'Celestial Navigation A Complete Home Study Course.' Not yet read it properly, but it looks like even I could understand the text. Bought from Wordery for about half the price of some fleabay sellers.
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At work I had to do a day long training course to use a laser. It was mainly repeating "don't look in to the laser" and "here is what is left of someone's retina that looked in to a laser". Also here are some calculations to see the watts per m^2 of power on your retina (..did I mention not looking in to the laser?).

So it seems off that we shouldn't have a really rigorous hands on training to use a sextant safely so we don't burn our retinas? I am sure there are lots of pitfalls that make it easy to burn your retinas? Obviously starting with all the filters in and taking them out one as a time, and making sure you don''t get to look at the sun past the mirrors. How do we know if the filters on a second hand sextant are working well enough? Is online training enough? Or am I exaggerating the dangers?
 
Bi111ion, responding to your questions......

The course specifically introduces the tabular method of solution in the air navigation tables. In another section, there is an awareness of use of calculator for sight reduction.

The minimum time to spend on the sextant is 2 hours and this includes a practical guide to its use and care at sea.

In total there are 13 sections to the syllabus, these are
The earth and the celestial sphere
The PZX triangle
The sextant
Measurement of time
Meridian altitudes
Sun, star and other sights
Compass checking
Satellite navigation systems
Great circle sailing
Meteorology
Passage planning
Passage making
Communications

I have no experience of doing this on-line and in keeping with Forum Rules I’m obliged to confirm that the way I was trained is the best and to disparage all other methods of learning ?
 
Monty Python?
Bi111ion said:
Is it necessary to use tables for the spherical trig for the exam? Since I can do this on a £10 solar powered scientific calculator from Tesco I reckon I could have several in plastic bags and I would still be navigating despite Satellite Armageddon. I dont mind learning to use the tables but it makes sense to me to practice calculator.

Also I wrote a python script to do the ephemeris and spherical trig. Python has an ephem library so it was quite easy. I expect in practice at sea I will use either this or the excellent spreadsheets of Henning Umland (which implement ephemeris in javascript). Maybe I have to do it the old school way for my qualifying passage?
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In case anyone is interested here is a simple example code in python. Resisting any temptation to make Monty Python or indeed snake related jokes.

It gives what I to get a PL of my garden, well actually it gives what the sextant should read with that assumed position, and I have the azimuth so I can plot a position line. Averaging a few readings, and a far from perfect artificial horizon the PL is within a mile of where I was standing.. but it needs a bit of work. Just wanted to show people with a little programming knowledge how easy it is.

import ephem
home=ephem.Observer()
home.date='2016/04/19 12:47:37'
home.lat, home.lon = '53.3280922','-1.9948138'
home.pressure=997
home.temp=20
sun = ephem.Sun()
sun.compute(home)
print("Sun Altitude and Az %s %s" % (sun.alt, sun.az))
print("Dec %s" % (sun.dec))
print("RA %s" % (sun.ra))
deg= ephem.degrees
print("GHA %s" % deg(marsham.sidereal_time()-sun.g_ra).norm)
arcerror =-1*(ephem.pi/180)/60
print("Sextant reading with art horiz %s" % deg(sun.alt*2+arcerror))

When you run it output is

Sun Altitude and Az 47:20:05.8 194:46:04.6
Dec 11:25:46.6
RA 1:51:13.52
GHA 10:09:13.4
Sextant reading with art horiz 94:39:11.7
 
Bi111ion said:
1) Navathome ... Not going to work on my Android tablet or Ubuntu laptop then I presume.
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The course runs on Ubuntu no problem. I am on my third course and all on an Ubuntu PC.
The online plotter will only work on Windows though (at least for me) which is "not good"
 
I'd like to suggest a shift of focus, in this discussion.

It's my understanding, from a couple of Yachtmaster Instructor Examiners of note and from a once-professional background, that the seeming emphasis on 'Reduction of a Sight to Produce a Line of Position' in the YMO syllabus is so very prominent only because of the difficulty and time required in teaching the use of ( a derivative of ) spherical trigonometry from ab initio, to the detriment of the other important components of the ~40 hours course e.g. ocean met, passage planning.

The use of astro on a small craft today is really a Reversionary Procedure, for when other means fail. Or for practice....

It should be borne in mind that the primary technique for navigating ships at sea before reliable radio-nav ( of which GPS is but the latest ) was that of keeping a quality Deduced Reckoning Plot. The use of astro Lines of Position - and other LOPs, such as bearings taken on island mountains, headlands passed - was to correct the cumulative errors in such a DR Plot. The Plot was the central means of making navigational decisions.

That's why a calibrated compass and a calibrated log, a regular entry in the navigation log, and a developed skill in considering/applying 'error vectors' was so important.

Hence the 'once per day' ( at least ) Compass Check for Unexpected Deviation using e.g. Sun's Amplitude Tables. Of course there are other techniques to point up that someone has stuffed a Walkman/iPhone too close to the steering compass.... before one ends up 100 miles off course, with nothing recognisable when landfall is expected. There are plenty of examples....

A Junior Officer ( Navigator Apprentice ) would usually have spent perhaps 18 months in the Home Trade before securing a position in an ocean-going capacity. In that time, he would have learned how to Run a DR Plot, to take/use LOP bearings on lights and landmarks as they were passed, and also learn the proper handling of a sextant for deriving quality fixes from Horizontal and Vertical Sextant Angles. The mysteries of spherical trig were just another step along the way, probably commenced with the resolution of a simple Latitude by Polaris.

Step by step. Brick by brick.

The present RYA/DoT syllabus does not, as I recall, gives neither that perspective nor emphasis. I suppose that, some 40+ years ago when the RYA/DoT National Training Syllabus was considered, it was believed that yotties of that time would be well versed in Running a DR Plot, and its central role would have been evident. Somewhere along the way, that perspective seems to have become lost.
 
Neill said:
The course runs on Ubuntu no problem. I am on my third course and all on an Ubuntu PC.
The online plotter will only work on Windows though (at least for me) which is "not good"
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Thanks. Good to know. Online plotter not needed for OYM.
My current thinking is to sign up for the course (prob one using N@H with the most convincing sounding instructor when I phone them.
 
zoidberg . Well I do want to do the course, so that after I do a qualifying passage in May I can take the test. So of course the syllabus could be updated but I doubt it will change by then.

From my own point of view I took my RYA/DOT Yachtmaster theory in 1978 (with Morse code and drawing a synoptic chart from part of the shipping forecast). I learnt practical navigation as a teenaged 3rd and 2nd mate on OYC ketches, so I have run a lot of EPs around the Irish Sea and the English Channel.

That said I do really wish the course had more meteorology, ocean currents and ocean passage planning. It is my weaker subject.

I don't know any practical alternative to celestial navigation in the event of GNSS (GPS+GLONASS) failure, but a basic Sun run Sun would probably do fine if you can see the Sun until the coast is in Radar range.

Keeping out of the way of tropical storms seems more important once you have mastered the basics.
 
Bi111ion said:
That said I do really wish the course had more meteorology, ocean currents and ocean passage planning..... I don't know any practical alternative to celestial navigation in the event of GNSS (GPS+GLONASS) failure, but a basic Sun run Sun would probably do fine if you can see the Sun until the coast is in Radar range.

Keeping out of the way of tropical storms seems more important once you have mastered the basics.
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Sounds like you're well on your way. Agree fully with the above. May I point your interest towards Reeds Astro Navigation Tables 2018/...? It was called Reeds Heavenly Bodies ( Cdr Harry Baker ) for many years - until the PC WetWipes got in on the act - and has much to commend it.
 
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