Yacht share costs - mby article.

jrudge

jrudge

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There is a large section on yacht sharing in this months magazine.

Given all the examples are one company - yacht share - it seems more advertorial than editorial. I am surprised that from a journalism point of view mby did this as it is hardly balanced some shares are ask for sale so it really is advertising.

What really struck me was the astronomical fees the company is charging. Running a similar sized boat I know what is costs!

Manhattan 60. £12k for a 12th share. That is £144k per annum !!!

Princess 62 £24k pa for 1/6 share. £144kpa again

Portals is not cheap, and appreciate the organiser needs to make some money but these fees are more than double the real costs.

I have owned a plane with friends. I think the basic principal is great but the fees in this case seem very hi.

Something syndicate run will be much cheaper and given in practice you will call the engineer I can’t really see the service suffering much.

Wondered on others views?
 
Which prompted me to look at the capital cost

Manhattan 60 2008 £55k for 1/12 660k
Princess 62 2008 £58k for 1/12 £696

The boats are not worth near those numbers so the share company gets it all ways.
 
As you know we share our boat.

I liked at all these share schemes and they are all very expensive, plus 9 out of 10 times you don’t own a registered share in the boat, you own part of a company that owns the boat.

My thoughts were for what they were charging you may as well charter when you want to. I couldn’t see getting out of one of these arrangements would be straight forward either.
 
Yep, I'm another fan of boat sharing. I spoke to Simon Maunder a couple of years ago and he certainly knows his stuff (although he told me that I wouldn't be able to buy a boat and set up a syndicate on my own). If he's managed to create a business selling boat shares then good for him.

But this article really did feel like an advertorial (I actually checked to see if it was). I see that http://www.yacht-share.net/ have the MBY logo under "Worldwide Partner", perhaps Hugo or Simon could explain how one becomes a MBY "Worldwide Partner"?

I also have a bit of a concern regarding these 8 member / large boat syndicates. What happens if you get a few nasty knocks leading to insurance claims? I think some of these syndicates might find themselves struggling to get insurance. I guess that's where Simon's experience can help sort things out.

Perhaps to balance things out Hugo should speak to the guy that founded http://www.boatsharefinder.co.uk/, he's a really interesting chap and makes no charge for people to buy and sell boat shares via his website (he simply request a modest charity donation)?
 
jrudge said:
See princess are at it as well

2011 princess 64. £300k per quarter. £1.2m. They are advertising same year one for £ 975k ( and that is dear)?
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Yes, I looked at this deal and came to the view it was expensive. I thought the residual value would be c.£600k after 4 years so £150k per share in depreciation versus say £300k for the whole boat under single ownership if bought for the correct price ie c£900k. I suspect the syndicate boat would be worth less than a privately owned boat due to extra hours etc which I haven’t taken into account and would add to the relative cost of the syndicate boat.

I also thought the running costs were about double what I’d expect so overall it was going to cost half the cost of buying the boat but for just a quarter share.

Whilst the cost reduction was attractive, versus a whole boat, it just didn’t stack up as a proposition for me.
 
Each to their own re buying and running your own boat vs a yacht share but I feel I should point out a couple of things.

Firstly, we are not and have never been a partner of the Yacht Share Network. Their web designer got carried away. They have now removed our logo from their website.

They do advertise with us from time to time (as do lots of companies) but this was genuine editorial written by me with no commercial incentive.

I met Simon at the boat show, felt he had an interesting story to tell and liked the fact that this offered a relatively affordable way into boat ownership. But rather than take his word for it I spoke to four owners who'd bought into it for different reasons.

I focussed on this company alone as it has a proven track record, you own a share of the boat (not the company) and his customers seem to be extremely complimentary about both him and the business. I tried to eke negative comments out of everyone I spoke to but other than the occasional gripe about the difficulty of longer stays on board or spur of the moment bookings they all seemed genuinely delighted.

The sum of the shares may add up to a bit more than the secondhand price of a similar 'whole' boat but that seems to be a case of demand and supply; there is often a waiting list for shares in these boats. Syndicates rarely seem to be 'dissolved' and the whole boat sold, people just sell their individual shares as and when they want to and new people come in. Of course there is still 'depreciation' in the value of the shares, which might suffer a bit from extra engine hours but like the running costs you are only taking a relatively small share of that hit.

I should also point out that the company doesn't usually make any money from the running costs (just the brokerage fees on sales) as most syndicates run their own finances. These tend to be higher than if you were running your own boat as they are cleaned every week, used more than normal, kept in expensive marinas and maintained professionally. The flip side is that you are only paying for your share of them.

I recognise that this isn't going to suit everyone (Simon is also very clear about this) but as a way into boating or a means of reducing your commitment (money and time) without stopping boating altogether it makes a lot of sense. Some owners use it as a first step onto the ladder before buying their own boat, others use it as a means of moving up to a bigger boat overseas and some come to it as a means of reducing the time and expense needed to run their own boat.

Anyway, enough said and apologies if I sounded over-enthusiastic in the article. I have to admit I was won over by the enthusiasm of his customers.

Hugo
 
Hugo Andreae said:
Each to their own re buying and running your own boat vs a yacht share but I feel I should point out a couple of things.

Firstly, we are not and have never been a partner of the Yacht Share Network. Their web designer got carried away. They have now removed our logo from their website.

They do advertise with us from time to time (as do lots of companies) but this was genuine editorial written by me with no commercial incentive.

I met Simon at the boat show, felt he had an interesting story to tell and liked the fact that this offered a relatively affordable way into boat ownership. But rather than take his word for it I spoke to four owners who'd bought into it for different reasons.

I focussed on this company alone as it has a proven track record, you own a share of the boat (not the company) and his customers seem to be extremely complimentary about both him and the business. I tried to eke negative comments out of everyone I spoke to but other than the occasional gripe about the difficulty of longer stays on board or spur of the moment bookings they all seemed genuinely delighted.

The sum of the shares may add up to a bit more than the secondhand price of a similar 'whole' boat but that seems to be a case of demand and supply; there is often a waiting list for shares in these boats. Syndicates rarely seem to be 'dissolved' and the whole boat sold, people just sell their individual shares as and when they want to and new people come in. Of course there is still 'depreciation' in the value of the shares, which might suffer a bit from extra engine hours but like the running costs you are only taking a relatively small share of that hit.

I should also point out that the company doesn't usually make any money from the running costs (just the brokerage fees on sales) as most syndicates run their own finances. These tend to be higher than if you were running your own boat as they are cleaned every week, used more than normal, kept in expensive marinas and maintained professionally. The flip side is that you are only paying for your share of them.

I recognise that this isn't going to suit everyone (Simon is also very clear about this) but as a way into boating or a means of reducing your commitment (money and time) without stopping boating altogether it makes a lot of sense. Some owners use it as a first step onto the ladder before buying their own boat, others use it as a means of moving up to a bigger boat overseas and some come to it as a means of reducing the time and expense needed to run their own boat.

Anyway, enough said and apologies if I sounded over-enthusiastic in the article. I have to admit I was won over by the enthusiasm of his customers.

Hugo
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to give that comprehensive response.
 
Hugo.

Thank you for the reply.

Can I question one thing. A Manhattan 60 simply can’t cost £144k to run.

I run a s58 in Mallorca. My costs are ballpark £40k inc fuel . Portals is expensive yes and I am sure they are washed etc but this can’t add up that that sum!

It may technically not make money as yacht share bills the syndicate at it’s own rates hence moving the profit to yacht share.

I fully appreciate it appeals to many but maybe they don’t know the true ownership cost of having their own boat or like the end to end concierge type service.
 
jrudge said:
Hugo.

Thank you for the reply.

Can I question one thing. A Manhattan 60 simply can’t cost £144k to run.

I run a s58 in Mallorca. My costs are ballpark £40k inc fuel . Portals is expensive yes and I am sure they are washed etc but this can’t add up that that sum!

It may technically not make money as yacht share bills the syndicate at it’s own rates hence moving the profit to yacht share.

I fully appreciate it appeals to many but maybe they don’t know the true ownership cost of having their own boat or like the end to end concierge type service.
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The fixed running costs are £84k a year but the owner in question reckons it costs him £12k for his 4 weeks once he's included fuel, supplies, marinas and presumably a few other personal expenses. This is just what he budgets for his 4 weeks on board.

As I understand it, Yacht Share don't bill the owners for the fixed running costs unless they have been specifically requested to manage the yacht on the synidcate's behalf. They simply provide the software and legal structure for syndicates to run their own finances.
 
I was an owner of 16 shares on one of Simon Maunder's yachts and think I should correct a few things in Hugo's reply:
1) There is a few £ 1,000 to pay to Simon's wife for the "management of the boat"
2) There an extremely high turnover of share owners on all his Yachts on Mallorca, the SSRs are constantly out of date. Since it's virtually only possible to sell via Simon, he gets a £ 10,000 commission every time.
3) The mooring is rented from a friend of Simon. Since that's not really officially allowed, £ 50,000 is paid in cash without a receipt. Per boat and per season, that is. A bit of trust is needed!
4) There are always a few owners who pay their share of the costs late, or not at all, so expect to have to top up from time to time to cover some other owner's costs so that the boat runs during your week.
5) It attracts a certain crowd that don't really look after the yacht, style "yeah that new sofa cost £ 12,000, but divided by 8 owners it's only £ 1,500". So expect very significant wear and tear, and boat refurbishments and repairs costing a premium.
All in all, only recommendable for people who don't really care about costs. From talks I had with other share owners on his other yachts, it's always significantly more expensive than listed on the website.
DYOR.
 
dokeg22209 said:
I was an owner of 16 shares on one of Simon Maunder's yachts and think I should correct a few things in Hugo's reply:
1) There is a few £ 1,000 to pay to Simon's wife for the "management of the boat"
2) There an extremely high turnover of share owners on all his Yachts on Mallorca, the SSRs are constantly out of date. Since it's virtually only possible to sell via Simon, he gets a £ 10,000 commission every time.
3) The mooring is rented from a friend of Simon. Since that's not really officially allowed, £ 50,000 is paid in cash without a receipt. Per boat and per season, that is. A bit of trust is needed!
4) There are always a few owners who pay their share of the costs late, or not at all, so expect to have to top up from time to time to cover some other owner's costs so that the boat runs during your week.
5) It attracts a certain crowd that don't really look after the yacht, style "yeah that new sofa cost £ 12,000, but divided by 8 owners it's only £ 1,500". So expect very significant wear and tear, and boat refurbishments and repairs costing a premium.
All in all, only recommendable for people who don't really care about costs. From talks I had with other share owners on his other yachts, it's always significantly more expensive than listed on the website.
DYOR.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. I'm not surprised though.
 
I am not sure how you own 16 shares in a single boat.

If you are running something like this it need to be 100% above board. Cash has no place for making payments.

The turnover is interesting. I suppose you are buying a lux lifestyle for less. This will attract some who have no interest in boating and some who use it as a taster before losing all sense of perspective and buying one of their own !

I assume it did not suit you but a positive is you did not say anything negative about the boats or service

Something of course has to pay for the ongoing advertising in mby - and that of course oils the wheels for editorial coverage.
 
@jrudge: all boats are divided in 64 shares - you can buy 4, 8, 12, 16, or more if you don't like money LOL

IMHO it's all about transparency... the ads make it sounds like it's an "independent syndicate" with their own "platinum syndicate agreement", but in practice Simon and Mandy are physically and financially involved in every step along the process, from buying your shares, over maintenance, repairs, cleaning, until you sell part or all of your shares. Sure, they sell it as "part of the service" but expect to pay a very high premium. The fixed suppliers (repairs, equipment, ...) don't seem to have competition and set the price for everything. Simon's yacht and home sharing businesses operate under a few other brand names and corporations.
Sure, after a beer or two in the marina everyone moans why we had to replace this or that tableware for £ 3,000 and why did it have to be shipped from that particular boutique in the UK and not be bought in Spain for less than half the price, but no-one speaks up openly because then you might not be able to sell your shares or the boat might need a repair during your week or your crew might not be available.

Anyway... this is my own and honest opinion and everyone should do their own research and take their own informed decisions.
 
I would only do it with friends I knew I could trust .2/3 max and ideally similar time available so for me retired .( packed up @54 ) .
Basically the group control the decisions .
Even if some one rolled over there time one year ( illness etc ) being friends the next year the other 2 drop down so he can catch up .As long as you know then a dropper outer(s) can slum off to NZ / Aus etc .
Prob rent a berth and roam around the Med try the usual haunts be flexible and move it about .
under LLL of 24 M so no crew .....hire ad hoc winter maintenance guys locally .

How ever having said that I do like the spontaneity of single ownership and having no timetable being currently able to drive to a from to the boat as and when .Arriving for a spell and not knowing when you are gonna end it so to speak .
Also like a house you collect your personal things , have his n hers wardrobes and can clean it up ( or not my guardian in Italy is lookimg after it for @€120 / month inc a clean and he sends pics ) , I hire him in the closed season .
Other work the charge out rate is €30 / hr .

Not sure we would want a bigger boat n share ......Pref if anything to use ours as a glorified Med personal taxi and for changes of routine and a bit of pizzazz arrive at say Portofino in our 48 ft Itama and slum it in the Splendido ( sp ) .With friends making there own way for a off peak few days s .
Itama available for days out .

Theres zero commitment going forwards like having to fund say a 3rd share of a San Lorenzo 62/72 or what ever .
If you did that then you probably wouldn’t spend on nice shoreside accommodation .

Also I in the camp that 1/2 the pleasure of boat ownership is fixing things anyhow .

How ever if folks want a end to end solution , time poor and cash rich then the fractional ownership mentioned fits the bill , big bill .:) :)
 
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