Yacht ownership in Italy

[Tamer11]

I am looking at buying a yacht in Italy or buying in UK or France and taking it to Italy and mooring it there long term. I am a British and hold ICC coastal skipper licence issued in Dublin. Could someone point out the implications of buying an Italian registered Yacht or a British registered yacht and keeping it in Italy? Do you need a higher class of licence to own an Italian registered vessel, only for private use? As I understand it on a British registered Yacht in Italian waters you would not require a licence.

You advice would be much appreciated.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just one thing to keep in mind , if you buy in Italy from a broker you will have to pay an commission to the broker .
ICC fine for Italy , if may be a different thing if the you keep the yacht registered under Italian flag then you will have to apply to their rules and law

 

[danielefua]

As already written: a UK citizen with a boat with UK flag is subject to UK regulations only. I don't know if there are time limits but I would guess that until UK stays in the EC (who knows...?), there aren't. I would discourage anyone to keep the Italian flag: an infinite maze of red tape!

Where are you planning to moor? Beware of high prices.

Daniel

 

[Tamer11]

Thanks for the replies.

So I guess a UK registered vessel would work for me? What if I found a well priced Italian Flagged vessel, anyone know how much it would cost to re register it and how long.

There is a reasonable Marina on a river just outside Pisa.

sailaboutvic very nice website you have there.

 

[Portofino]

You can put it on the SSR online for very little - £30 or less ,thereby making it UK reg -red Ensign etc -Anytime .
Technically before UK reg - your broker should de flag it ,remove it from the IT reg .It costs about €2500 -your share you can negotiate .Takes about 3 months .
The seller will be keen ( this is your leverage in the negotiations ) cos if not de-reg then the system will throw up tax liabilities to him .
Also it's in your interests if in Italien waters cos " guardia Finanza " will pull you and realise the tax is owed = right pickle .
They Patrol and stop boats to check the paperwork -telephoning ashore to tax office .I understand foreign none Italiens can NOT hold Italien Reg ,but through a company structure it may be possible if you really want to keep it Italien reg,ed -but normally most Brits de-flag and reg SSR or part 1 -Problem with part 1 you need a surveyour to measure " tonnage"
When it's de-flagged they issue you the new owner and the seller relevant documentation -so no annual boat tax is due .
You can then with a hair dryer remove the liecence Numbers - port stern quarter and Stb bow quarter ,and polish away the ghosting .
With a red Ensign you will not be hassled -if so Insurance is all they need to see along with Uk reg doc .
The deflag doc will indicate that the VAT any other taxes are all up to date .
I have just done it and boat is moored in Cote d Azur ,but we intend to return to Italy -

 

[Tamer11]

.........thank's a million Portofino invaluable information.

 

[Monique]

As already written: a UK citizen with a boat with UK flag is subject to UK regulations only. I don't know if there are time limits but I would guess that until UK stays in the EC (who knows...?), there aren't. I would discourage anyone to keep the Italian flag: an infinite maze of red tape!

Where are you planning to moor? Beware of high prices.

Daniel

Not fully correct. For instance, if you have the boat in Spain, you could be liable to a big tax bite if the boat is in Spanish waters more than 183 days... Not sure of the exact specifics.

Look at jimbsail.info for better information. GL in your endeavours.

 

[Tamer11]

monique, yes I am sure the tax authorities will have some rule the same in Italy, I will have to find what it is. Thanks

 

[danielefua]

Not fully correct. For instance, if you have the boat in Spain, you could be liable to a big tax bite if the boat is in Spanish waters more than 183 days... Not sure of the exact specifics.

Look at jimbsail.info for better information. GL in your endeavours.

I don't know... I had my boat (Finnish flag at that time) in Spain for almost two years and had no trouble whatsoever. Also in Greece and Croatia EEC boats pay a tax for sailing their waters but I would hardly call it a big tax bite. Presently in Italy there is a "sailing" tax only for boats longer than 50' or so, either Italian and EEC.

Regarding another subject, I tried to browse the Italian laws to understant if the cost cited by Portofino to de-ensign in Italy is indeed so high (€2500). As mentioned before, in Italy nothing is simple but I think I understood that the figure is overestimated. The higher tax cost of the procedure lies in the registration of the sale, probably of the order of €1000 depending on the size of the boat; the strict de-ensign tax costs are around €200 or less. I would tend to say: beware and beware again of taxes invented by the Italian brokers!!!!!

Daniel

 

[Tranona]

Not fully correct. For instance, if you have the boat in Spain, you could be liable to a big tax bite if the boat is in Spanish waters more than 183 days... Not sure of the exact specifics.

Look at jimbsail.info for better information. GL in your endeavours.

That is not correct. If you are not resident in Spain there are no restrictions on keeping a boat there. Any tax liability is attached to the owner, not the boat. If the owner meets the requirements to be resident, that is being there for over 183 days then his or her boat is potentially liable to a tax, but this can be avoided by declaring the boat when you become resident. If you actually read the reference you gave, Jim explains it.

Thousands of non residents keep their boats in Spain (and other EU countries) without any difficulties.

 

[Roberto]

Regarding another subject, I tried to browse the Italian laws to understant if the cost cited by Portofino to de-ensign in Italy is indeed so high (€2500). As mentioned before, in Italy nothing is simple but I think I understood that the figure is overestimated.

+1
because of (or thanks to) a very weak Italian second hand market, a lot of people from France for example have bought Italian registered boats, got their radiation certificate (either themselves or the previous Italian owner), then registered under their preferred flag.
No one I know of ever talked about that kind of figures (thousands euro), rather almost free, or a couple of hundred if they left everything to be handled by a broker.
I'd think it is possible to spend a couple of thousands, but absolutely not inevitable.

Also, I agree, by all means de-register from the Italian flag

 

[duncan99210]

We have some friends, a married couple, one Italian, one Swiss. Their boat is registered in Switzerland as it is both cheaper and easier than having the boat on the Italian register.

 

[BrianH]

I have my UK, MCA Pt I registered boat in NE Italy (Adriatic) and have had for many years. Absolutely no problem. As someone else pointed out, Italian registration is for nationals only, but anyway more problematical with always potential taxation issues.

The marina agency through whom I rent my berth took a copy of the registration document and no one has ever asked for anything else since. The Guardia di Finanza are very active in my 2000 plus berth marina but never bother me - they regularly cruise by me on my outer berth in their RIB and just give a friendly wave when we have eye contact, they are only interested in large new Italian-owned vessels that they suspect may be avoiding taxation.

I also have insurance certificate, ICC and VHF SRC but only ever requested when I declare into Croatia, also now an EU country but a world away from the - in my experience - easy-going and friendly Italians.

 

[Fendant]

As long as Great Britain stays in the EU I would go for a UK flag. Make sure that you have ALL the necessary documents that the VAT was paid in the state of the 1st registration. Swiss flag is not a good idea:
a) lot of red tape registering a Swiss ocean going vessel, owner must be Swiss national and living in Switzerland
b) Swiss is not part of the EU, vessel must leave EU Waters every 18 months adn document this, after reentering a new 18 month period starts
c) Sale of vessel to a EU national triggers VAT payment immediately

Does Italy still have the luxury tax for boats over 10 m?

 

[BrianH]

As long as Great Britain stays in the EU I would go for a UK flag. Make sure that you have ALL the necessary documents that the VAT was paid in the state of the 1st registration. Swiss flag is not a good idea:
a) lot of red tape registering a Swiss ocean going vessel, owner must be Swiss national and living in Switzerland
b) Swiss is not part of the EU, vessel must leave EU Waters every 18 months adn document this, after reentering a new 18 month period starts
c) Sale of vessel to a EU national triggers VAT payment immediately

All correct statements but the OP proposed Italian registration, a poster merely quoted someone who had Swiss registered ... not an issue here I would have thought. Not only restrictive but expensive, includes a survey by a Swiss surveyor - costs and expenses to travel to a sea location.
Edit: As a naturalised Swiss it was an option for me but out of question on cost grounds alone.

Does Italy still have the luxury tax for boats over 10 m?

It was implemented in 2013 then revoked a year later when they saw how many mega-yachts were deserting Italian waters.

 

[Tranona]

As long as Great Britain stays in the EU I would go for a UK flag. Make sure that you have ALL the necessary documents that the VAT was paid in the state of the 1st registration.

Not quite true. Registration has nothing to do with where the VAT is paid. It is paid in the state where the "chargeable event" took place, which could be where the seller is or where the boat was put into service. Either of these could be different from the state of registration, although they are often the same. If the boat was originally used for commercial purposes such as chartering, VAT may not have been paid when it was first registered but payable when it was sold to a private owner. My boat is like that. Was first registered in Greece, VAT not paid and sold to me after it had been removed from the Greek register and re-registered on the British register. VAT was paid in Greece which is where the transaction took place, even though I am UK citizen and resident.

 

[danielefua]

Not quite true. Registration has nothing to do with where the VAT is paid. It is paid in the state where the "chargeable event" took place, which could be where the seller is or where the boat was put into service. Either of these could be different from the state of registration, although they are often the same. If the boat was originally used for commercial purposes such as chartering, VAT may not have been paid when it was first registered but payable when it was sold to a private owner. My boat is like that. Was first registered in Greece, VAT not paid and sold to me after it had been removed from the Greek register and re-registered on the British register. VAT was paid in Greece which is where the transaction took place, even though I am UK citizen and resident.

Just beware! In Italy they will not proceed with the de-registration of the boat until everything is cleared from a point of view of taxes, mortgages or whatever might be pending. This is why, as I read in the regulations, the de-registration procedure is in the responsibility of the present owner/seller and NOT of the buyer. I confirm that the cost for the de-registration red tape is low, less than € 100, but the government offices in charge take their time and need approximately one month before giving clearance. After that, the change of property can be carried out but a document of the new authority that will register the boat must be presented.

Daniel

 

[stevepryor]

Does anybody know how to check if a boat is registered in Italy? I'm looking to buy a Bayliner 305 that's moored in Lido di Jesolo and current owner is not sure if the previous owner who kept in in Venice area registered it (Less than 10M so not required to). The boat has "LV.45300" in smallish black type on the side.

Who can I contact to check, and if registered, will that prove that VAT was paid? The boat was originally shipped to Spain from Quality Boats in Florida, and the invoice says VAT and Duty paid but no other evidence.

Any help appreciated.

 

[bikesherpa]

Hi,

In Italy, a pleasure boat can be classified as:
- "natante" if length < 10m or
- "imbarcazione"

A "natante" does not have a registration number and there is no public registry of such boats. People usually keep on-board a copy of the purchase invoice or deed, to proof ownership of the boat if asked by authorities. A "natante" has some navigational restrictions and therefore the owner may opt to still register it as an "imbarcazione"

An "imbarcazione" has a registration number (RID number) that should be shown on the topsides of the boat. Each "Capitaneria" (a sort of harbour master) keeps a public registry of all "imbarcazioni" registered in their sea area. The first few letters of the registry number tells you the Capitaneria to which the boat belongs (e.g. TS=Trieste, GE=Genova, MN=Monfalcone, Roma=Rome and so on). The complete list can be found here:
www.baraldi.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/sigle.pdf
To my knowledge, "LV" is not a valid registration number
Once you find out to which Capitaneria your boat belongs, you can ask them to view the content of the public registry about that boat (ownerships, major accidents, liens, etc.)

 

[macd]

...in Greece...EEC boats pay a tax for sailing their waters but I would hardly call it a big tax bite.

Are you referring to the DEKPA? Surely €30 is barely worth the mention in the context of this thread.
If it's the Cruising Tax (TPP) to which you're referring, it has yet to be implemented and maybe never will be.