Y Insurance Query

[petem]

I'm fortunate to have a very capable chap who fixes and generally looks after our boat. During the summer, he also skippers for other owners (for a fee) who wish to have someone drive their boat for them. It is quite possible that in the future, in my absence, I may ask him to skipper my boat, for example to take my wife and friends out or to undertake a sea trial.

I note that the Y policy contains the following exclusion....

----------------------------

What is not covered

4 No cover is provided in respect of:

4.1 .......

4.2 the legal liabilities of anyone operating, managing or working upon the Vessel who is employed by a ship yard, repair yard, yacht club, sales agency, delivery contractor, similar organisation or marina unless moving the vessel within the marina with the owner’s permission or unless
otherwise agreed by Us;


----------------------------

Am I correct in interpreting the above to mean that he would not be covered under our insurance for any damage that he might cause to a third party vessel outside of the marina?

 

[MrB]

I would have thought that if he fixes and and looks after peoples property and skippers for money he would have his own insurance and be covered by that.

 

[petem]

I would have thought that if he fixes and and looks after peoples property and skippers for money he would have his own insurance and be covered by that.

He has 3rd party liability insurance for the work that he does but it doesn't extend to damage caused to boats outside of the marina.

Would this do the trick: https://www.pantaenius.com/de-en/insurance/skipper-liability/ ?

 

[superheat6k]

I suggest you ask Claire - very good at answering specific questions.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm fortunate to have a very capable chap who fixes and generally looks after our boat. During the summer, he also skippers for other owners (for a fee) who wish to have someone drive their boat for them. It is quite possible that in the future, in my absence, I may ask him to skipper my boat, for example to take my wife and friends out or to undertake a sea trial.

Ring up Y and tell them. I regularly have a skipper moving my boat and I always phone them and follow it up with an email. I cant remember ever being charged for the extra cover

 

[petem]

I suggest you ask Claire - very good at answering specific questions.

It was Claire who pointed it out!

 

[MapisM]

During the summer, he also skippers for other owners

In your boots, rather than worrying about insurance coverage, I would explain your co-owners that it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay someone else for having fun on their behalf!

 

[MrB]

In your boots, rather than worrying about insurance coverage, I would explain your co-owners that it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay someone else for having fun on their behalf!

I don't get your comment M? Pete is on about someone taking his wife and friends out on the boat if he isn't there to do so? If fully qualified and insured why would the syndicate be bothered?:ambivalence:

 

[MapisM]

I don't get your comment M? Pete is on about someone taking his wife and friends out on the boat if he isn't there to do so? If fully qualified and insured why would the syndicate be bothered?:ambivalence:

Ops. I understood that this skipper was employed by his other boat sharing partners.
Well, the principle still stands anyhow - he might just teach his wife to helm the boat...
We're not talking of the USS Gerald Ford, after all!

 

[jfm]

Pete the answer to your question depends upon the employment relationships that the skipper has. You have given us no information on that so it’s impossible to answer the question.

Separately, people have mentioned above the guy’s own 3p insurance. I would say that is barking up the wrong tree. Nice if he has it but you shouldn’t attach much weight to it because you don't know its coverage and you can’t enforce it.

 

[petem]

The chap describes himself as a "Skipper and Product Support Technician", is a one man band (I don't know if he is a sole trader or works under the umbrella of a Spanish company). I employ him on an ad-hoc basis so any maintenance jobs would be separate to any skippering jobs. There's no annual guardianage (sp?) contract or anything like that.

Note that cover for damage to our own vessel is not in doubt providing I.1.1.1 is complied with...

SECTION I –
GENERAL CONDITIONS THAT APPLY TO THE WHOLE POLICY
1 You must comply with all of the following conditions:
1.1 If You give permission for someone else to be in charge of the Vessel, You must take steps to ensure that they have experience to do so.

To further muddy the waters from a layman's perspective "Y's" own "Product Information Document" states...

What is not insured?
Section B – Your Liability to Others
No cover is provided in respect of liabilities:
• of anyone managing or working on the vessel who is employed by a ship yard, yacht club or similar organisation unless moving the vessel within the marina with the owner’s permission or unless otherwise agreed by us;

Note that "operating" has been omitted!

One other question, if a skipper hits another vessel, is he liable or is the boat owner liable for any 3rd party damage?

Of course the irony is that such a professional person is far less likely to hit something than the owners!

 

[Portofino]

Pete it’s primarily a leisure policy .
Think of motor ( I know dangerous comparison) and SDP and you hire a driver, professional ( because you are banned or what ever ) or want to compete in a 1/2 day track day with Lewis Hamilton sat giving a lesson , or want to use SDP policy for delivering parcels or something .
The quotes for the other than plane vanilla SDP are 2x or 3x .

Back to boats professional skippered actuarial records probably show a higher risk of claims so attract a higher premium.
Amlins have stripped that out for us “ leisure “ guys and pitched the price of the policy so .Down !

You need a different policy architecture based around skippering .

Ok a quick call to Y from Mike F to say a guy is moving his boat form his berth to the marina slip 400 m and then back a week later is a risk Y take on without revoking the existing policy writing another and repeating back when Mikes boat returns after it annual maintenance,

But tossing in a pro skipper for jaunts out in my book means a suitable alternative policy priced via actuarial risk accordingly.

Bit like a car SDP and you end up habitually ( because the Co car was stolen ) using it for business / work .

You might be able to buy a temp bolt on for the skipper ?

 

[petem]

Well, the principle still stands anyhow - he might just teach his wife to helm the boat...
We're not talking of the USS Gerald Ford, after all!

Blimey P, steady on! I don't even like her driving my (company) car!

 

[jfm]

Pete, answers in colour below.

The chap describes himself as a "Skipper and Product Support Technician", is a one man band (I don't know if he is a sole trader or works under the umbrella of a Spanish company). I employ him on an ad-hoc basis so any maintenance jobs would be separate to any skippering jobs. There's no annual guardianage (sp?) contract or anything like that. The critical question upon which liability turns is the one I identified and you are not getting to an answer to that question. You're guessing at best. You need to get an answer to the question if you want to know whether you're covered or not.

Note that cover for damage to our own vessel is not in doubt providing I.1.1.1 is complied with...

SECTION I –
GENERAL CONDITIONS THAT APPLY TO THE WHOLE POLICY
1 You must comply with all of the following conditions:
1.1 If You give permission for someone else to be in charge of the Vessel, You must take steps to ensure that they have experience to do so.

To further muddy the waters from a layman's perspective "Y's" own "Product Information Document" states...

What is not insured?
Section B – Your Liability to Others
No cover is provided in respect of liabilities:
• of anyone managing or working on the vessel who is employed by a ship yard, yacht club or similar organisation unless moving the vessel within the marina with the owner’s permission or unless otherwise agreed by us;

Note that "operating" has been omitted! The omission is slightly helpful to you in this context, but doesn't give you imo the certainty you need

One other question, if a skipper hits another vessel, is he liable or is the boat owner liable for any 3rd party damage? Complex question and different answer in each country but in general there is material risk of secondary liability on the boat owner (which helpfully might not be caught by the exclusion clause) or de facto liability due to a mortgage-by-operation-of-law on the vessel (for which -due to that exclusion clause- you would not be covered). All this is enough, I think, to create worry for you imo. Sorry to repeat myself but you ultimately still come back to the fundamental unanswered question of the skipper's employed /not employed status.

Of course the irony is that such a professional person is far less likely to hit something than the owners! Maybe, maybe not

 

[MapisM]

Blimey P, steady on! I don't even like her driving my (company) car!

LOL, as if that would matter. With SWMBOs, the whole point is what THEY like!

 

[petem]

Sorry to repeat myself but you ultimately still come back to the fundamental unanswered question of the skipper's employed /not employed status.

Thanks JFM.

Sorry, I'm being thick here. IS it important whether he is employed by his own Ltd Co as opposed to being a Sole Trader? He's definitely not employed by a another company.

Can you rephrase your question if I'm not getting it?

 

[rubberduck]

I have had my boat moved several times by pro skippers, Y had no problem with this.

 

[petem]

I have had my boat moved several times by pro skippers, Y had no problem with this.

But do you know for certain if the pro skippers had their own 3rd party liability insurance? Alternatively, have Y extended cover accordingly?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But do you know for certain if the pro skippers had their own 3rd party liability insurance? Alternatively, have Y extended cover accordingly?

Any insurer should ask you that. Having said that, I've never used a skipper who has had his own 3rd party liability insurance although they should have some kind of skippers qualification depending on the country in which they are operating. In the past, my insurance company has asked me for copies of the skipper's qualifications and passport

Y should be happy with that and extend your 3rd party liability to the skipper for a limited time period. To be honest I think youre making too much of this. Get Y's agreement over the phone, send them any documents they require and they should send you an amended policy document (which the skipper might say he wants to have anyway to cover his own backside)

 

[jfm]

Thanks JFM.

Sorry, I'm being thick here. IS it important whether he is employed by his own Ltd Co as opposed to being a Sole Trader? He's definitely not employed by a another company.

Can you rephrase your question if I'm not getting it?

Yes it is important, but moot if you take the v sensible advice in second para of Deleted User's post #19 above.

I have had my boat moved several times by pro skippers, Y had no problem with this.

That's not the same as saying they formally extended cover.

But do you know for certain if the pro skippers had their own 3rd party liability insurance?

Please don't rely on another person's 3P cover to cover your liabilities. You can't be sure you can enforce it. Take control of things yourself.

Y should be happy with that and extend your 3rd party liability to the skipper for a limited time period. To be honest I think youre making too much of this. Get Y's agreement over the phone, send them any documents they require and they should send you an amended policy document (which the skipper might say he wants to have anyway to cover his own backside)

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