Would you trust a broker

[Alrob]

as a side step from previous posts on other forums I have have to ask the question how can I trust a broker to pay me for selling my boat ???

After all we cant even trust our banks to look after our money anymore.

This is the reason I would prefer to sell privately ( if there was any buyers out there) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Renegade_Master]

"how can I trust a broker to pay me for selling my boat ???"

Erm I think you pay the broker for selling your boat as it happens

 

[Alrob]

I would class receiving a payment from proceeds of sale as being being payed by broker

 

[Sneds]

I think he means getting the sale proceeds from the broker before he runs off to Monaco /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Renegade_Master]

the sale proceeds are from the sale of the boat owners property. Its not the brokers property. So therefore the boat owner does "pay the broker" his commission.

However I know what you are getting at, in the event the broker receives the balance of the funds beyond the deposit, then how can you guarantee he will pay it to you. I reckon you should be able to request that the balance of the agreed sale price beyond the deposit, gets paid to you direct. Cant see any harm in that.

 

[RobWales]

There are buyers, believe me, be smart research the market know the value and pitch yours at the right price......
Could have sold mine twice, yes at sensible money, just don't be greedy at the end of the day its a buyers market!
Keep it for a year and see what develops or think smart.
Good luck.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Once the buyer has paid all the money to the broker, legally title passes to the buyer because the broker is acting as the seller's agent. So, you have every reason to be concerned about whether the broker passes the money on to the seller (less his commission obviously) particularly in the present economic climate. Brokers will point to the fact that clients money is held in a separate escrow or clients account but, whilst the account may be separate from the broker's business accounts, the broker will have access to this type of account just like any of the accounts he operates so he can empty it and clear off just the same. Even if the client accounts are operated correctly, as the recent Peters situation shows, it can take months/years for the administrators to release these monies in the event that the company goes down
So to avoid all this, IMHO you should insist that the buyer pays you directly and you pay the broker his commission from the proceeds. The broker will not like this at all but, in the current climate, I would insist on it. I had a very close call myself once. I sold a boat through a well known Thames broker. The money went into his account and the buyer took the boat away. Days passed and I started phoning them to chase my money, a couple of weeks passed and I called in to chase my money. I got all the usual excuses - computer system down, director on holiday etc etc - but eventually I had to get solicitors involved and only then did I get my money, about 1 month after the sale. A few weeks later, the broker went bust. Brokerages are usually small businesses with cash flow problems like any small business. However, unlike other small businesses, they have large lumps of cash going through their accounts when boats are sold. It must be very tempting for brokers to delay payments to sellers to make a few quid interest on holding their money for a week or 2 or worse, borrow money from the client accounts to pay business creditors. Don't trust them, I say

 

[Renegade_Master]

"Don't trust them, I say" ...................this should surely read dont trust all of em.

As I suggested above it is perfectly possible for the post deposit balance on completion to be paid direct to the seller. Frankly I would prefer this anyway.
With regard to the deposit however this needs to go through the broker as stated in the sales & purchase agreement, for various and obvious reasons.

The deposit protects all parties,:

the seller, as it ensures the buyer is serious, (all deposits subject to survey and sea trial of course)

the buyer, as the offer is secured, the vessel ad then reads "under offer" and remains so until or unless the sale falls through for reasons of poor survey results.

and the broker as it enables him to proceed with organising the survey, securing payment for the survey from the buyer, putting any points made by the buyer to the seller raised in the survey, and it ensures the brokers commission is safe.

You suggest that if the seller is paid the whole proceeds the broker can then trust the seller to pay their commission.......Hmmm

Why should the broker risk not recovering his expenditure and profit? Lets face it estate agents would not accept that situation. I mean many people would be tempted having received all the funds, to withhold the commission. Easy after the event.

For instance over the last three days I have been dealing with a sale (the owner is in South America on hols), first I have to get the batteries charged then an engineer to get the engines running to take the boat for lift out, which I had to book in my name for me to pay as the owner owes berthing fees.

The buyers arrive all the way from Germany, view the boat ashore, the marina then refuse to relaunch so we can sea trial it (gun placed firmly against my head) until the outstanding berth fees are paid. The buyers have come so far, I do not want to let them down or lose the sale so I paid this bill also.

The sea trial returns 7-8 knots on a planning boat with clean bum, buyers now getting frustrated agree to come back next day PM (there last day) whilst I get an engineer to try and free the turbos. He manages one but not the other, and needs his bill paying which I have to pay.

We then discover other problems anchor winch not working, head not flushing no water pressure etc.The buyers then have had enough cos the boat still will not perform and fly home. I am currently out of pocket by 2-3000 euros and the sellers on hols. Had the boat been better presented and I had secured the deposit this would have helped cover these costs.

 

[gravygraham]

Reading your post Clive I presume you didn't 'go over' this particular vessel ahead of putting her on your books, to familiarise yourself with her to help speak authoratively to any enquirers. I'm not knocking you, just inquisitive.

Graham

 

[Renegade_Master]

We did got over the boat when she first went up to sale, (must be 9 mnths ago) it had just been cruised round from another Marina, boat immaculate inside took the photos, all including the engine room looked clean.

Truth is it is up the the owner to ensure the vessel is kept in servicable condition ready for any viewings survey/seatrials. We obviously washed the vessel prior to the buyers visit, and then attempted to start her to move it to the lift out and thats when the problems started.

Point is is you had an expensive car of similar value (£80k), and you put it up for sale, you wouldnt store it in an old barn and neglect it for 9 months would you.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

[ QUOTE ]
As I suggested above it is perfectly possible for the post deposit balance on completion to be paid direct to the seller. Frankly I would prefer this anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clive that's very unusual. The brokers I have suggested this to in the past have been horrified


[ QUOTE ]
With regard to the deposit however this needs to go through the broker as stated in the sales & purchase agreement, for various and obvious reasons

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with that


[ QUOTE ]
Lets face it estate agents would not accept that situation

[/ QUOTE ]
They do. Estate agents don't handle the money, a solicitor does and the estate agent relies on the solicitor to pay over his commission

 

[DAKA]

I would not trust a broker with my money.

I have bought my last three boats privately and paid by transfers in two parts.

One to clear the outstanding finance direct and the balance to the owner.

In one case the boat was owned by a Broker, as I couldn't clear the balance of mortgage I got a letter from the brokers bank confirming that they had no interest in the boat once I had paid.

It is only a matter of time that regulation catches up


there should be a regulatory body to enforce

Statutory trust account
Statutory percentage contribution from the sale into a compensation scheme to cover brokers going bust.
guidelines as to how descriptions can be given clearly stating what claims are qualified
accountability for errors such as incorrect engine details, year of build etc

i am sure brokers shudder at the thought but good brokers will benefit.

 

[Renegade_Master]

Clive that's very unusual. The brokers I have suggested this to in the past have been horrified
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Why do you think they would be horrified Mike, I mean they have a 10% deposit which covers their commission and indeed they the broker have to pay the difference (deposit less commission) to the client on completion

All the balance is due to the seller anyway.

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They do. Estate agents don't handle the money, a solicitor does and the estate agent relies on the solicitor to pay over his commission


Hands up yes of course the solicitor holds money and pays the estate agent.
Funny how we all trust solicitors innit

 

[DAKA]

[ QUOTE ]

Funny how we all trust solicitors innit

[/ QUOTE ]

No we dont trust them but dont they have statutory clients accounts where our cash is protected by compensation schemes. ?

If they run off with our money we have protection, they have to submit accounts in order to demonstrate they are healthy businesses.

 

[DAKA]

This is nothing personal, please dont take it that way.

There is too much at stake for little more than a gentleman's agreement.

Some of my clients are paying me by credit card for extra protection, i accept it with a smile.
in their position I too would be looking for extra protection, it the compensation scheme fails then best have back up of credit card protection.
it makes sense.

In these hard times brokers need to be aware why some punters are not spending and find ways to encourage them to part with their money, they want to but need to feel secure.
Before regulation I have shown clients a set of my accounts and bank account copies, anything to keep clients happy and feeling secure.

 

[Renegade_Master]

I appreciate all that Daka. Under the current climate it takes a lot more to "trust" a broker to receive the money on your precious boat and pass it on.

Thats why I am suggesting that post deposit funds could be paid into the sellers account direct after all it is the sellers money.

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You watch next post will be from the broker knockers who say we do nowt for our commission, ....."what now you want to opt out of part of your duties under the current contract to complete the fiscal side of the deal by not taking all the money".................... "you lazy [--word removed--] broker"

 

[capsco]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate all that Daka. Under the current climate it takes a lot more to "trust" a broker to receive the money on your precious boat and pass it on.

Thats why I am suggesting that post deposit funds could be paid into the sellers account direct after all it is the sellers money.

_____________________________________________________________

You watch next post will be from the broker knockers who say we do nowt for our commission, ....."what now you want to opt out of part of your duties under the current contract to complete the fiscal side of the deal by not taking all the money".................... "you lazy [--word removed--] broker"

[/ QUOTE ]

Clive that still leaves the deposit vulnerable, this could be a large ammount which could be lost if a Broker goes down.

 

[Renegade_Master]

Capsco the deposit is usually 10% commission 8% plus 16% IVA (VAT) doesnt leave much in real terms. And thats before other items which may need to be covered by the deposit see my post to Deleted User above.

(PS and at the end of all that I still dont have a deposit anyway)

 

[capsco]

Clive you are looking at it from the Brokers angle, my point was, and in answer to the original question "Would you trust a broker"? the deposit on even a modest boat could be £10k, and as I said, this could be vulnerable if the broker goes down, I for one would not want to risk that sort of cash if I thought there was the slightest chance of losing it.
This is not meant to cast any aspersions on you personally.

 

[Renegade_Master]

"the deposit on even a modest boat could be £10k, and as I said, this could be vulnerable if the broker goes down"

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£10,000 is 10% on a £100k boat so not that modest. As I have explained above my idea was to have the 90% paid direct from the buyer to the seller on completion, I trust you follow that idea.

Now that leaves the 10% deposit held by the broker. How is vunerable if the broker goes down? as it is mainly his anyway see my last post.


So if I put my seller hat on and take off my brokers hat, I would certainly be happier if the broker had only the 10% and the rest was paid to me direct by the buyer.