Would you make a good surveyor? New training course

[luddites]

Surveyors get a lot of stick on this forum, some deserved some not. It is obvious from some of the posts here that many forumites have a wealth of small craft experience and would make good surveyors after some practical training. At present it is possible to gain "diplomas" in small craft surveying entirely by distance learning without ever leaving your PC.
Well call me old fashioned but this job is about hard won hands on practical experience. Here is an overview of the course:


The course will consist of four weeks (arranged as two separate fortnights) of intensive practical training plus one optional specialist week covering wood construction, leading to application to the Yacht Designers and Surveyors Association for Membership at Affiliate level. The practical weeks are not classroom based, the training centres around a variety of real boats under actual survey conditions. The course is most suited to individuals who have some practical experience of yachts and small craft and is not suitable for those with no experience.
The practical training will be supported by illustrated modules and practical “how to” guides to all aspects of the survey process, plus a compulsory reading list. Prior to the practical weeks delegates will be expected to study this material in depth.
The intake to the practical weeks will never exceed 15 delegates and the group will be subdivided to ensure a good tutor delegate ratio. Each practical week will culminate in the delegate undertaking a survey of the area covered during that week. His report will then be dissected and returned to him with a critique before the next practical week. This continuous assessment will enable the college to tailor the course to fit individual requirements. During the final week delegates will undertake full surveys on steel and GRP and produce reports which will form the basis of their application for YDSA membership.

More details from www.ibtc.co.uk

 

[Guest]

As an Owner of a Professional Commercial Survey Company - it is *****.

But let me say this - I have the Utmost respect and admiration for the International Boat Building Training Centre - they perform excellent work .......

YBDSA ... YDSA .... they choose name as it suits !! I have little time for ... sorry but that is my opinion.


Simply put and simply answered. The persons who complete such course would still have to complete all necessary training and supervision under my company with or without this course. It would have no bearing whatsoever on our judgement or acceptance of the person. Second if the training is under the guidance or instruction of YBDSA - that would be a minus point as far as I am concerned.

This sounds like YBDSA is finally waking up to fact - along with many others - that Surveying in UK is not governed, has no formal qualification, there are no real Qualified Yacht Surveyors - they are Assessed only.

I don't think many of the real experienced Surveyors will be attending ????

 

[Hermit]

Hello, I am actually doing the Yacht and Small Craft Surveying Diploma at the moment. Having attended a tutorial recently I would like to put your mind at rest - it is not a bunch of Lorry Drivers/Washing Machine Engineers/Car Mechanics etc. (not to deride those professions!) who think that it would be a good breeze to fleece a few yachties for a survey.
It is a group of intelligent, experienced people, largely already in the marine industry, who are undertaking a professional course to learn more skills. It is by no means a 'quick fix' surveyors course.
Alternately, feel free to have one of the thousands of (legally) unqualified and uninsured surveyors work for you.

 

[Guest]

If the course does a good job - then I will retract ... but so far anything that YBDSA has been involved with has not impressed us - Professional Commercial Surveyors.

I take your comment and I wish you the very best with the course and hope it fulfils what you wish for.

I employ surveyors who prove themselves and lets be honest my requirements for Surveyor / Inspector exceed any Yacht Surveyor criteria by a large margin.

My work is international - with Internationally recognised and respected Merchant Trade Banks accepting Certificates and Documents issued by any Inspector of mine - You cannot claim that regardless of Associate or Full Member of YBDSA ... so please do not assume I have Surveyors or Inspectors that cannot perform.

Prior to my setting up my own company's - I was a leading Manager with BSI - organising and creating offices all over Baltic .... I think if BSI can trust me to do it - I think that speaks for itself.

I will take issue over the words Qualified and Uninsured .... a) all Inspectors / Surveyors have to be In-House trained and supervised before even thinking about working as Primary Inspector - takes months even years not weeks and that is on top of previous career which should have been Marine related, b) we carry not a few thousand pounds cover - but Millions ....

So get it right and enjoy your Course - as I said learn and I hope it helps you to succeed. The IBTC is a good body of people - I respect and admire them.

 

[tome]

So what qualifications do you hold?

 

[sophie4]

So what would be your suggestion for becoming a surveyor?

 

[Guest]

Best are those have worked their up through boatyards and marine profession. It is true that there are those that can learn theory etc. faster .... but time served is still preferred by us.

Myself - I spent years in boatyards when younger and even when at sea as a Deck Officer went out of my way to stay abreast of developments and boats. Understudied and followed experienced guys to add to my boatyard gained knowledge. Whenever possible observed, quizzed, took in as much as possible from Osmosis treatment centres and shipwrights. Personal friendship with Shipwrights who for example worked on Shamrock V - J-class restoration etc.

Basically I grew up with boats in the blood and kept reading, observing, learning, delving into new techniques / technologies etc.

The above is a generalised answer to Sophie4 to show that it is an involved and lengthy learning curve. There is no way to fast-track it as I see it ... I have various Certificates from Inrternational Survey Companies I attended recognised Formal Training Courses with - not available to general Public / new entrants ... but those I regard as a document only - the real qualification is getting out there and really getting hands stuck into the job to build up the real knowledge. Anyone can write a report ...

 

[Guest]

Strangely quiet here .... ?

Luddite has gone quiet ....... ??

C'mon Mr. Luddite - what's the story ??

 

[graham]

Re: Strangely quiet here .... ?

[ QUOTE ]
Luddite has gone quiet ....... ??


[/ QUOTE ]

A yachtie on a bank Holiday weekend,I cant think what he could be doing? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

S.B.C. I agree with you that hands on experience of boat building and repairing are the only way anyone will get a real grounding, but someone with that background could not fail to benefit from the course ,could they?

In my experience on any course you learn as much off the other students as from the instructors and over a period of time the instructors will learn a lot from feed back from the succesive courses of students.


Anything that improves the quality of surveyors has to be good IMHO.I have come across some who are excellent and some who dont know their ar4e from their elbow.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
My work is international - with Internationally recognised and respected Merchant Trade Banks accepting Certificates and Documents issued by any Inspector of mine

[/ QUOTE ]
SBC you don't seem to appreciate that different markets tolerate different cost levels.

As a passenger coming into land at Heathrow I expect that the guy who services the landing gear breaks to be highly trained, well paid and supervised.

However when my car is booked in for replacement disc brakes I would not be willing to pay for similar built-in high costs.

 

[luddites]

too cold on the boat

so Nigel I am back. The story is this:

my name is Paul Stevens. I am a surveyor who thank goodness works mainly on the east coast away from the madding (mad) crowd.

I am a long established surveyor and always busy so I must be doing something right. You can read what is called blog these days on my website www.paulstevenssurveys.com I am 53 and have been a member of the YDSA for quite a few years.

For the last 3 years I have developed and led 1 week practical surveying courses at the IBTC Lowestoft for students following theory based diplomas. These have been highly successful and the overwhelming feedback from the delegates is for more on site practical training. Two other surveyors are involved and they are from various backgrounds including a very experienced and eminent member of RINA. Between us we have about 60 years surveying experience and we are all practical people with boatyard backgrounds. The new course is specifically aimed at those with boatyard and small craft experience who wish to pursue a career in surveying. So the 3 of us have developed this course in order to pass on all those little practical tests and wrinkles we all develop over the years and which are difficult to put into print, things like examining a hull several times during the survey as the light conditions change, the use (and abuse) of moisture meters etc etc, but using real boats under survey condiitons.
The YDSA's most senior and experineced surveyors have scrutinised our course and have chosen to endorse it because they feel it has something to offer the small craft surveying field. However the course is open to all and will be a good grounding for application to any orgnisation who have small craft surveyors as members. I emphasise however that the course is practical and not a fast track route to anyhere, it is designed to complement theoretical study and other theory courses. In particular it is designed to help those with good theoritical knowledge but no practical experience. At present for most in this situation there is no choice but to set up in business and get the experience on the hoof, potentially to the detriment of their clients. We see our course as bridging that gap and an altogether more satisfactory route for all concerned, but it's not perfect nor all embracing. We aim to train surveyors who are competent to start on basic commissions but who may initially prefer to pass on more complicated and specialist work.

I will not be drawn into any debate about other surveyors or organisations, save to say that there are good bad and ugly in all walks of life and local recommendation is always best when anyone requires a surveyor.

Sun's come out again, i'm off down the boat.

Cheers Paul

 

[Guest]

But for many years I did survey in UK at fees well below ....

I have reduced my work in UK based on my limited time back. But forgive me from saying that I am aware of market tolerance .... when I was asked by YBDSA to increase fee's if I wanted to join them - which I refused to do - my fee was £5 a ft + travel........ compare that please. OK it is not practical now because the P&I premiums are way up now ...

You would be surprised at fees quoted if I was resume work in UK. I am sure that I could still quote lower than some I can think of.

The problem comes actually from the mis-conception that bodies such as YBDSA are officially sanctioned. They are not. The magazines don't help in this either - as they for some reason like to promote such as YBDSA - I'm still trying to understand why ?

Jonjo - honestly - I understand your post - but in fact there is an error..... as the fee for a yacht survey would be a) negotiated based on what the Client wants, b) not as expensive as you think.

But of course I also know people who want it for £50 !!!!!!

 

[Guest]

Improve the situation .... I agree 100%

Look at it from my point of view .... I run Inspectors to survey ships, cargoes, yachts, etc. etc.

I spend a lot of time and effort making sure that my guys are best possible I can put out in field.
I then read that someone proposes that a person after a few weeks can become a member of YBDSA as a Surveyor. It does not matter that he is still Associate member waiting for full status - most clients will not understand the difference and will employ him to report on their boat. Why ? Because Market says YBDSA etc. is OK ... Sorry but I have my opinion on that.

BUT I agree that a formal course IS good ... as long as it is looked upon as development of knowledge NOT replacement of years of building up that fountain of experience.
Remember that a Surveyors knowledge is called upon more for older boats than new ... he is expected to know about inherent problems of Westerly Keels, Southerly Keel lifting systems, Bavaria bulkhead joints, Trapper chainplate fixings etc. These are just a few examples of the thousands - how can a short course address these ... and when the course is involving new buildings etc.

I admire putting a course together - I admire and agree with increasing the value of surveyors / potential surveyors knowledge ........... but the initial post gave perception that complete the course - join the YBDSA and bingo !

It was advertising anyway - that is my view. YBW Forums are not here to advertise - I don't even though I have "wares" to sell.

 

[Guest]

TO Luddite ....

Thank you for the post that has actually detailed the interest and grounding to the course.

I can now wholeheartedly say that I agree with your later post and I wish it the greatest success.

I make this as a Public and Full honest statement.

My reasons have been expanded upon sufficiently to illustrate my reservations about YBDSA and its role. But I hope that the course meets with success and helps us in the Survey field to be better understood and to reach standards that mean good for all.

Without seeming to be rude ... the initial post rattled my cage - as it was obvious to me that vested interest was somewhere in the background.

I wish you the greatest success in the Course.

 

[Guest]

Let me also clear up a point ....

A surveyor is a surveyor and I will in no way mean to affect his livelihood or occupation ... he is free to join whatever organisation or Association he feels is best for him. I have NO ARGUMENT with Surveyors.

When I comment on YBDSA / YDSA / YBSA / - you will find it changes with their emphasis ! - I comment on THEM - not the members.

Let that be clear ...

I do not use Magazines / RYA or others to push my EU accreditation, I do not use similar tactics to push my Russian Sea and River Accreditation etc. They are for me and the client ... along with other "qualifications" held by me or my companies.

I know many YBDSA and other non-affiliated Surveyors that I would be happy to call "fellows".

Let me ask a question ...........

Brokers are not allowed to recc'd directly a single Surveyor - it is seen as conflict and illegal. Fact. I know it happens but ....

Then why should an Association actively encourage and recruit both disciplines ? Y (Yacht) B (Brokers) D (Designers) S (Surveyors) A (Association). Isn't that questionable ??

I approached a well known Broker years ago with a view to offering fully Independent Survey services .... his answer was "I have what I want from ... what do you offer ....?" I walked away.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Let me also clear up a point ....

You raise a good point about a conflict between surveying and broking.

But I do not understand why you are against the concept of a YDSA-like body. What other established professional service is regulated purely on word of mouth recommendation between customers? Yes the YDSA is a young professional body but just because statute law does not confer the association with a national closed shop status like dentistry, we should not infer they are a bunch of self appointed incompetents.

 

[Guest]

Re: Let me also clear up a point ....

Lets bring this to a close ... with a clearance ...

I am not against a body to pull together the profession and give it credence or substance etc. To further the understanding and development of the field.

But we are talking different here ... you only have to look at the style of advertising ... remember the Adverts sayin g that Reports could be posted without survey, read the blurb piut out by them ... The ONLY Professional Body - sorry that is not true and they are self-appointed.

There are various bodies - Nautical Institute, RINA, IMS, just to name 3 out of quite a number ... I don't see similar tactical advertising from them.

The word Professional here is out of context I'm afraid. It implies Professional Qualification, Profession, Examination etc. Yacht surveying in UK does not currently have such requirements YBDSA or any other body for Yacht Surveying. Please do not confuse the two arenas.

Anyway - why are you taking up their banner ? Have I offended you as a member of YBDSA ?

My point is - Yacht Surveying needs sorting in UK and properly. Not left to its own "clubs" and pally networks.

 

[jonathankent]

Re: Let me also clear up a point ....

Now this is starting to confuse me... the same post on 2 forums, yet with different responses and by some of the same people.... lets try and only use one of the posts, that way hopefully we can keep track of the threads...