Would you buy a boat with missing history?

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dedwards

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I'm looking at getting my first boat and have come across one thats about 18 years old but the paperwork only begins 6 years ago. This means there is no original VAT receipt or builders certificate however its SSR registered and they can cofirm a history going back 16 years.

Is this normal or is it to be avoided at all costs?
 
If you go to France they will be quite fierce about VAT and could confiscate the boat or force you to pay a very large cheque.

The Ship Registry history will be really helpful.

If it is a recognisable brand the broker who sold it to the original owner might be able to give a letter certifying that VAT was paid, and might even have a copy of the original Bill of Sale.

I bought a 1989 Beneteau when she was 11 years old and Ancasta were very helpful with this very problem.

Perhaps you could persuade the seller to sort this out?

Good luck.
 
"the broker who sold it to the original owner might be able to give a letter certifying that VAT was paid, and might even have a copy of the original Bill of Sale"

Thats a very good point! its a GibSea but unfortunately I have been led to believe that the broker back then was a 'Caravella yachts', which has subsequently ceased trading. Could anybody confirm or deny that?

The seller is doing his own enquiries but I thought i'd check too and in any case, I'm trying to get an idea as to how common this is because I don't want to buy a lemon but I also don't want to turn down a boat only to find this situation is quite normal.

Did Ancasta bring up the goods in your case?
 
I take a keen interest in this subject as my VAT document is a photocopy, the original having gone missing before I bought the boat. I cannot claim to have seen every post that has ever been made on the subject but here is my summary:

A few owners of nearly new boats, especially expensive mobos, have had their VAT records scrutinised in Spain and possibly France.
Owners of obviously older boats, especially those in the low - mid range price bracket, seem to have been untroubled.
My own experience is that having kept my British-flagged vessel in Europe but out of UK for more than 10 years now, we have never been asked for any sort of VAT prooof. We have been boarded by customs in France and were given quite a searching but we were only asked to show the ship's registry documents and passports. In Italy we are regularly received by the Coastguard in many small ports. We have never been asked for anything other than the same documents. We are occasionally asked to show proof of insurance in marinas. That's it.

My view is that the lack of VAT status on a boat of this age is a good negotiating point but it would not deter me from buying.
 
They did indeed liquidate and the VAT office at Dover does not have any records that could be useful. I'm fortunate to have a photocopy of a subsequent sale which confirms VAT was already paid. But all you can do is go back to the original owner - if traceable, and beg on bended knee. Usually its the second owner who looses the documentation.
 
So, so far that seems to be three replies from people who bought boats lacking the original VAT receipt. This is starting to sound quite common.

Is the builders certificate needed for anything? or doesnt that matter?
 
according to RYA/MCA, a bill of sale (in UK) would be proof to a foreign EU country that VAT responsibility lies with the UK, and not the visited country. However, records of VAT need only be kept for 7 years, so its not realistic to think you can prove further back than that. At a worst case your boat is worth 100/117.5pct, but has anyone ever heard of uk Customs asking for proof on a second hand boat, unless entry from outside the EU was very recent?
 
I guess it's quite common. But I'd still think twice about it. To take an analogy, osmosis is also common - and neither lack of proof of ownership/VAT nor osmosis may be a real problem when using the boat, but both may make it harder to sell.

Even if at the moment there are many buyers who wouldn't be fussed about this, such attitudes can change with time, especially with (I believe) fraud increasingly becoming an issue in boat-buying transactions.
 
I have bought all my boats (20 years) up to this one without any documents at all. These have previously all been worth sub-15 k and very difinitely in the older category. Never been asked in any Dutch/Belgian/French or British port, although have been boarded before.
Like Vyv Cox I have never had any trouble either, but it may be worth squeezing a few quid on the price to take account of it.
To be honest, most smallish boats not used for commercial purposes have been bought privately and are almost certain to have had VAT paid on them if they have been local for years.
Its a (calculated) chance you take I guess
 
[ QUOTE ]
has anyone ever heard of uk Customs asking for proof on a second hand boat, unless entry from outside the EU was very recent?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mine was checked for VAT paid status by German customs this summer, and she's never been outside the EU.

They didn't at first accept the UK Bill of Sale + Part 1 registration as sufficient evidence - in the end original builders invoice showing VAT paid did the trick.
 
Let me put u right on SSR 3. It is vital to have the "ORIGINAL"
certificate when visiting EU Ports.
I was boarded in Calais by French Douanes(Customs)
The officer asked for the original (not a copy) of my SSR3
"Eef vous do not ave eet, vous weel leef Arbor immediant!!
Be warned
 
Haven't sailed in the UK for a few years, tho' my impression is that UK customs are less hot on checking yachts than their continental cousins (?). But even if you don't intend sailing to the continent you might lose buyers in the future if the yacht is 'grounded' by lack of documentation. It may not be a problem for a dayboat in the N of Scotland, but not so good for an ocean greyhound based at Dover.
 
I have a boat now 23yo which I bought 2 years ago in Holland and the only paperwork I had was the registration document for the previous belgian owner, on original builders certificate showing it was sold to a gentleman in West Germany (that's what itv was called then). So no VAT documents as such. So I can provide some eveidence that it was originally made and sold in the EU and proof of whom I bought it from ( via a broker). I worried a bit about VAT to start with but then decided the risk in truth was very low and the boat was a good enough buy.

Regards
 
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