Workmanship Fr vs Italian

[Portofino]

When I bought it I had a ceased sea cock in the rear cabin toilet .
It was a 3 way , Tank , sea or closed .It was stuck in “ sea “

A few seasons back while its was out in a Fr Yard on La Rague ( nearest to berth La Nap ) they replaced it at my request.
It was fitted wrong as it was either out to sea or closed .It could not be set to tank .
Anyhow we seemed to manage a few seasons .It always bugged me .We were on site doing the AF etc .That yard allows DIYers , well did pre Covid !
I know we should have tested it but it was on the hard line in a busy yard .

Take a look at the pic .Below is the Fr yards work .Note that paste / gum at the base .

The red handle after a 2/3 seasons fractured off and just spun .Thankfully closed to the sea , but remember it never was plumbed to tank so rendering the bog useless .
So this season in Italy while the boat was out for its annual i asked theses guys Home - Amico Loano to replace it .
All long range sending pics etc .
Heres what they did .


First thing fit a TTH fitting , note the backing plate .^^^


Then the valve for either tank or sea.They also replaced the tap in the yellow pipe , the bog water feed as it was ceased .
Note the double clamps and bit extra 38 mm toilet hose to the original .^^^
The middle smaller pipe from the SS elbow is the hand wash basin .



Changed the skin fitting as well , top RHS of the pic ^^^

The bill was inc Tax labour and parts ( quite a few ) was circa €500 .
The Fr yard was similar but the point of this thread is the difference in quality and workmanship not the price .
They had a pretty tight schedule of 4 days on the hard as well .

I did not ask for a quote just asked them to fix it ......properly.

 

[MapisM]

So this season in Italy while the boat was out for its annual i asked theses guys

Those guys, in their main yard in Genoa, deal with megayachts up to 170m and 4000 Tons.
If they would fit a seacock the way whoever did it in your first pic, they would be out of business in no time.

 

[julians]

Not sure that it shows a difference in workmanship of french versus italian yards in general , but more a difference in workmanshop between the two yards you happened to use, one being french, the other italian, if you see what I mean?

 

[Hurricane]

I tend to do mine myself.
You then know how good or bad it is.
I also take advantage of doing other stuff at the same time.
In this case, it involved changing the pipes for butyl rubber so as to avoid the nasty smells.

 

[Clancy Moped]

Not sure that it shows a difference in workmanship of french versus italian yards in general , but more a difference in workmanshop between the two yards you happened to use, one being french, the other italian, if you see what I mean?

Absolutely.

 

[Mr Googler]

If you took a french boat to the same Italian yard…..they’d get the mastic out ??

 

[Bouba]

While I agree that French workmanship is an oxymoron, Italian marine manufacturers (eg Besenzoni) are just as bad

 

[Portofino]

Those guys, in their main yard in Genoa, deal with megayachts up to 170m and 4000 Tons.
If they would fit a seacock the way whoever did it in your first pic, they would be out of business in no time.

Nailed it in one .

The Loano Yard .
They use the little crane for tiddlers.

 

[Mr Googler]

While I agree that French workmanship is an oxymoron, Italian marine manufacturers (eg Besenzoni) are just as bad

Only when you try to put an Italian built monster bit of kit on to french cling film ??

 

[Portofino]

While I agree that French workmanship is an oxymoron, Italian marine manufacturers (eg Besenzoni) are just as bad

Not my experience.
Used Pin craft Pin-Craft cantiere nautico Viareggio. passerelle, gruette for a passerelle control panel , Eng speaking part arrived next day .
Used Barka based in Genoa for a table ram .As above .
Used the XL yard in Roma for the cushion upholstery material directed same day to the supplier in Venice perfect Eng and timely emails exchange .
Not used Besenzoni as have a pin craft Passerelle.
But I recall your gripe was with your Fr installer fitting it to a Fr boat in a none OEM location , the location was at your instruction
and subsequently the boat needed substantial reinforcements to a flappy transom Iirc ?

 

[Bouba]

Not my experience.
Used Pin craft Pin-Craft cantiere nautico Viareggio. passerelle, gruette for a passerelle control panel , Eng speaking part arrived next day .
Used Barka based in Genoa for a table ram .As above .
Used the XL yard in Roma for the cushion upholstery material directed same day to the supplier in Venice perfect Eng and timely emails exchange .
Not used Besenzoni as have a pin craft Passerelle.
But I recall your gripe was with your Fr installer fitting it to a Fr boat in a none OEM location , the location was at your instruction
and subsequently the boat needed substantial reinforcements to a flappy transom Iirc ?

I felt that since I got the installer from their web site that maybe they would be a little bit sympathetic. While the product itself was not a problem, I pointed out that it requires expert installation and that I was buying the product and the service as a package. Of course I wasn’t, the installer was their customer and I his.
Anyhow, it’s all tears under the passerelle, I’ve moved on.

 

[vas]

Trudesign has a v.nice 3way valve for exactly that job.
Puzzled why many ppl are so obsessed with metal seacocks/skin fittings. Especially whey you don't really know what they are made of.

 

[MapisM]

While I agree that French workmanship is an oxymoron, Italian marine manufacturers (eg Besenzoni) are just as bad

Can't argue with that.
It's just a pity that I didn't have a chance to warn you about it, because among passerelle producers, of which in Italy there are a few, Besenzoni is the very last that I would consider for a retrofit.
Reason being that they are 99.9% oriented to large numbers, hence boatbuilders are not just the primary, but essentially the ONLY clients they care about.
Then again, hindsight is a great thing...

 

[MapisM]

I tend to do mine myself.

Maestrini bronze valves, by the look of them?
OTOH, the thru-hull colour is unusual. Did you use any grease or something to protect them?

 

[jointventureII]

I've been into both Amico Loano and Genoa. Amico Genoa is by some distance the most expensive yard I've been to - their huge selling point (at least to us on the superyachts) is that if they say work will be finished on eg. 1st May, on the 1st May you are back in the water. They are almost never late.

I'd say that generally the workmanship is better in the Italian yards but it needs to be judged on the individual yard rather than country. We had some absoltely shocking work done in Varazze, excellent work in Cantieri Navali Genovesi, excellent in Monaco Marine Beaulieu, I could go on but one notable difference is that Italian yards tend to keep it all in house whereas French yards seem to contract out the work a bit more.

I know plenty of captains that won't go to France for yard work and as many that won't come to Italy!

 

[stelican]

Surprised to see in all fittings photo's no bonding wires

 

[Portofino]

None of the seacocks are with this boat or my previous sunseeker .
This boat does how ever have the engines , g box s , alloy tanks and metal TTH exhaust fittings bonded to a large transom anodes .

 

[MapisM]

engines , g box s , alloy tanks and metal TTH exhaust fittings bonded to a large transom anodes.

So, your transom anodes are NOT bonded to engines alone, as per MAN recommendation.
Mind, I'm not surprised at all - in fact, I've yet to come across one single boatbuilder who bonded MAN engines that way.
I even wonder why they insist in specifying that.

 

[Portofino]

So, your transom anodes are NOT bonded to engines alone, as per MAN recommendation.
Mind, I'm not surprised at all - in fact, I've yet to come across one single boatbuilder who bonded MAN engines that way.
I even wonder why they insist in specifying that.

Not sure where you are going with this ?

The Zinc will always go first in a electrolytically if it’s linked by a solution namely seawater that’s the idea .Basic chemistry.
Its just having the correct mass of zinc for stuff connected .One large mass works equally as does shed loads of smaller zincs .
There is on my boat a large transom anode each side .Internally connected to a copper strip that runs along the bilge sides through the aft cabin under the sole to the ER and up the ER fwd bulk head .
As it goes on it’s journey various bonding straps are attached inc the engines
Even the BCS hydraulic steering ram , rudder stocks attached directly inside the transom .

The seacocks like this toilet one aren’t bonded in .Stelicans point ^^^ As per the previous S/ Skr and seemingly Hurricanes Prinny .

This particularly seacock cock was stiff when I bought the boat so I had a Fr yard replace it ,As said it was mounted the wrong way round and we found out at sea .A few years later the handle snapped off .I did regularly exercise it , as I do with all the others .

So presume as well as ( compared to the Italian yard ) poor imho workman ship fitting the thing it was also poor quality as the ball must have ceased ??

“Bonding seacocks “threads end up a bit like anchor threads there are a lot of variables .
Perhaps I wrongly thought, trusted the Fr yard to fit best quality.

Hurricane has a point DIY ing them he chooses.
Covid restrictions and all mean this year i outsourced this .Again let’s hope Amico know there seacock onions .I suspect they do .

 

[MapisM]

Not sure where you are going with this ?
...
...various bonding straps are attached inc the engines
Even the BCS hydraulic steering ram , rudder stocks attached directly inside the transom.

Nowhere, myself. My point is just where are MAN going with their requirements?
Transom anode bonding is similar in my boat, and many others MAN powered that I've seen.
But if you check MAN installation requirements, the whole engine DC circuit should be completely isolated by the rest of the boat, grounding included.
They must have had a reson to recommend that, which I fail to understand.
Particularly in the light of the fact that I've yet to come across any builder sticking to it.