woodwork!

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Question number 3 in the last few days...... this forum is great!

I'm intending to make up a set of berths in the forepeak to replace the existing sail store/general dumping ground that currently exists.... facing will be marine grade teak faced ply, and tops will be marine grade heavy duty ply....

Question....

What is the best wood to make the frame with?

Can I get away with ordinary planed wood (pine?) available from most local timber merchants, and heavily varnish it and/or soak thinned varnish in?... or should I be using a different (no doubt more expensive) wood?

Views from the experienced would be most welcomed......

 

[Evadne]

The short answer is..

You can get away with softwood.
The cabin sole bearers and other hidden woodwork on my 40+ year old boat are softwood (liberally soaked in bilge water and diesel to help preserve!) but anything that shows is mahogany or teak. Pine does go soft where rainwater gets in through the hatches, but not unduly so.
If I make anything new or replace it I use a generic red hardwood such as "B&Q mahogany" at the very least because (a) it looks better and (b) I think it will last better. But not because I can't make it strong enough any other way, unless it is part of the structural strewnght of the boat (bulkheads etc.). Hopefully your bunk supports aren't going to be soaking in salt water or baking in the sun all year around so rot, weathering etc. is not going to be a problem.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Instead of varnish use an epoxy wood saturation system and that will seal the timber against water and moisture. Clear timbers of low density, such as clear pine are fine with this.

Here in NZ and Australia International produce Epiglass Everdure for that purpose and is widely used. However, I cannot see it on the UK International site but no doubt there are alternatives available in UK. For rough out of sight areas I sometimes just use epoxy cut with meths so as it soaks in to seal the timber (including on ply) then sometimes a thicker coat to provide a complete coating as well.

Everdure, if available, can be used under exposed varnish systems too as it doesn't discolour the timber (test a piece first though).

John

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Neil,

You should not need any timber frame, the ply side sheets should support the top sheets, the outer edge of the top sheets can be glued to the hull, use epoxy resin and Micro-fibres, also allow for locker dividers under the bunks. The only timber required will be a short stock on the bulkhead and a bit for the picture frames; no structural frame required. As the bunks will (or should) be covered with some form of bedding (or junk), you can epoxy coat and paint the tops.

Access to the extra locker space can be as simple as cutting out the required size lids, then fix a picture frame support inside and drop the lids back in, add a finger hole to help lift out .

Avagoodweekend......

Also add small drain holes at low points and make sure they get a good coat of resin inside.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Umhh....

I did wonder about that....

A couple of challenges for me are firstly the walls are heavily coated/painted, so getting a good key to the existing fibreglass might be difficult, although doable with the appropriate amount of effort.... and secondly, and more importantly, the berths will be used by my kids, aged 6 and 9, so may well be subjected to excessive bouncing, jumping and general mischief making... so I wondered if a frame might add the additional strength required.....

 

[Joe_Cole]

If you can get hold of a small angle grinder then you will have no problem cleaning up the fibreglass. Plywood fixed to GRP with epoxy is remarkably strong; the plywood will break before the joint. A couple of enthusiastic youngsters shouldn't be a problem!

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day again Neil,

The advantages of securing your ply with an epoxy and Micro-fibre mix are:
less work, no timbers to measure and cut then shape, less overall weight, more forgiving, as you have to leave a gap for the glue so more room for minor errors if you carpentry is nut up to snuff.

The easy method: cut the side panels and glue them into the required position, cut the storage dividers and dry fit them to ensure they will fit, cut the tops and dry fit, draw a line along the top into the hull, remove the top sheet and grind back to glass using the line, one inch above the line and one inch below the bottom of the ply and left in between, fit and glue the dividers and the bulkhead support timber, then the top, use the back of a plastic table spoon to form a rounded fillet above and below the ply, don't be too fussy on the underside, the hull shape will support most of it.

Tips: if you plan to paint or flowcoat the inside of the lockers, do it before you put the top on.

Remove any excess glue as you go because it's hard to sand off later.

Bunks need a small rail to stop bedding sliding off, easy to shape from a standard 4 by 2, rounded top and square section cut out of the bottom and side to fit over the edge of the bunk, paint with 2 coats of epoxy, light sand to dull the gloss and paint.

By the way, the grinding will take about 15 minutes with a standard grinder and a 40 grit flap disc. Put a fan in the companionway and have the forward hatch wide open, this will reduce the dust levels in the saloon area.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Thanks for all the advice Guys... much appreciated.... I think I'll have a go at epoxying/gluing them in..... the cost savings and weight savings will be considerable, and the reduced complexity good!, plus another side benefit will be a considerably more watertight (although not waterproof) storage compartment.....

In terms of the section dividers, my thoughts are to have a fairly small section each side behind the bulkhead of perhaps 24" for small stuff (perhaps eventually fitted with a drop in compartmentalised bits and pieces holder), and then a large compartment each side finishing where the bunks join, leaving the entire forward section as a store for the storm jib, spinny and gennaker....

What dividers do you have?... and what would you recommend given the experience of usage...?... how large does the sail locker need to be?

 

[alienzdive]

Following on from a previous post which recommends everdure.

Everdure 20+ years ago was probably the best single pack wood preservative ever manufactured. It got itself a name that has been passed from one old sea dog to another.

Without much public notification however, the ingredients have somewhat changed to the original product. The newer product is of a substantially inferrior quality than he original. However the general public is unaware of the change and continues to purchase this weaker substance which is riding on a name praised for perfomance in a diofferent product.

 

[Ships_Cat]

I think that you are completely up the pole there. No one is claiming that Everdure is a preservative, least of all International themselves, and it is not a single pack product either as you state.

You are totally confused over what is being said and do not seem to understand what Epiglass Everdure is claimed to be - the product sheet is at http://www.yachtpaint.com/New_zealand/PDS/EpiglassEverdure.htm and you will see that it only claims to be As a primer for Timber surfaces prior to applying a wide range of paint finishes. Also used as an aid to sealing and densifying soft timber type surfaces to reduce moisture uptake and that is what I stated as the reason for its use in my post.

There is also no claim as to it being a preservative on the can either. West make a similar product and neither are inferior products as you claim.

There used to be a product many years ago called Everdure that was a preservative (do not even recall if it was spelt the same, and seem to remember that it stained the timber whereas modern Everdure does not and I think that trains were pulled by steam engines then). The only people confused are those who live in the past and expect modern products to be the same as ones of similar name a generation or two ago.

John

 

[Ships_Cat]

Have been trying to go back into the ancient past to find out about the "old" Everdure, but not a lot of luck as many, many moons ago.

Thinking back though I believe that it is probable that the old whatever it was (cos I don't recall if it was the exact same name) was never a preservative at all nor claimed to be so except to the extent that it encapsulated the timber thus preserving it.

As best I can remember the approach used to be, especially with plywood, to apply a wood preservative (Cuprinol Green type stuff) and then the Everdure or whatever that old product was called.

Maybe someone else ancient and with involvement with the stuff has a clear memory - I know Oldsaltoz is old enuff and may likely have used it.

John

 

[Guest]

I had a 30 year old boat (1972 build).

Framing for the bunks was untreated pine (of unknown spieces). This was still in perfectly good condition.

As I understand it wood rots when it cannot dry out and only then when it is wet by fresh water.

If you encouter a musty smell inside the boat it is due to an organism (whose name I do not know) rotting the wood; this is killed by salt water.

Maybe somebody can explain properly, I would certainy like to know.

 

[fishermantwo]

[ QUOTE ]
Have been trying to go back into the ancient past to find out about the "old" Everdure, but not a lot of luck as many, many moons ago.

Thinking back though I believe that it is probable that the old whatever it was (cos I don't recall if it was the exact same name) was never a preservative at all nor claimed to be so except to the extent that it encapsulated the timber thus preserving it.
John

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I have not used Everdure for a few years but can clearly remenber it stated on the container that it prevented rot. Looking in the current Bias catalogue under Wood Preserver, it lists Everdure and clearly states there that it helps prevent rot and seals out moisture.

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Ships Cat, what's all this meowing about?

I can recall we used a water based timber preserver in dim and distant past, had to apply it to the entire sheet (ply), then re-apply to the edges after cutting, it would take at least 4 or 5 coats as I recall. Must have been good stuff because at least one of the boats I replaced the saloon bunk sides to stiffen her up is still going strong, and it was top coated with a very standard reaction lacquer, after a thinned epoxy resin primer, still visible in some places on board.

I have been tracking your thread and have been trying to think of the products we used back then, but development moves on like the rest of rest of us, and remembering the names of all products and brand names over the years would be all but impossible.

I have been a fan of International and Eppyglass products for many years and have to say I have not even once had a problem with them; thou this no doubt applies to other products if used as directed and in applications they were designed for.

Perhaps there is an old sales rep out there who can assist?

Avagoodweekend......

 

[Ships_Cat]

Thanks for the feedback Fishermantwo and Oldsaltoz.

Have fished out some old cans of Everdure which are around 5 years old and no mention of preventing rot on those (wonder if it is still ok??). But in their various documentation International themselves talk of plain HT9000 epoxy thinned and used as a sealer preventing rot due to keeping moisture out and in the same they add the note that Everdure can be used instead of that, so no doubt it may have been on the Everdure cans at some stage.

It is certainly wide practice in boatyards as a finish coating by itself or as a sealing primer to go under other coatings including varnish. For anyone interested West System give a good description of using epoxy in this way at http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/18/varnish.html.

John

 

[paul_8ain]

I recall the steam engines ... The two-pot Everdure in the 60's and 70's (if I understood it rightly) used to have tin arsenate and perhaps some copper compound in it, which sometimes would give a very slight greenish tinge to some timbers. Almost like tanalising with a paintbrush. (Don't use a plastic-handled brush, it dissolves!) It turned pine and kahikatea into stuff you could hardly dent with a hammer. Some enthusiastic advocates would just dry out rotted timber with a fan heater or hair dryer, and put on several well-diluted coats to prevent further deterioration. On several boats, we used it for the interior "varnish": at least one thinned coat, then a standard one. The best thing was that for plywood boats, it provided a perfect surface and joint seal, having already soaked into those places where the water would want to go! I would like to track down the composition of what's sold now ...