wooden boat buying

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Novachris

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Hi, I am new to wooden boats, I have owned a few plastic ones in the past..anyway yesterday I went to have a look at a motor cruiser,it is a circa 1937 ex mod launch, double dia mahogany. all looked good until I looked under the deck to the shaft tunnel, there seemed to be a small patch of a brown furry stuff on the wood,the area is totally dry and sound,the owner said its been there for about ten years and even the surveyers didn't know what it is.also there is a small amount of reddish water (not diesel) in the bilges, tastes slightly salty.
i'm starting to think it is dry rot, could it be?
thanks.
 
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the reply...there is a wooden boat surveyor available who knows this boat, I am going to take a few days out to think about this...the brown fungus is/looks like its growing on or out of the wood..apart from this I like the boat.
 
If it is a small patch, then i am sure that it could be removed and if necessary filled or replaced.

While its hard to find quality mahogany there still is some around, for example I was able to buy a number of long planks that had formally been snooker tables from a reclimation yard in N Wales. They even shipped them down to me.
 
I own a wooden boat of very similar vintage. To be honest, I think this is what owning an old boat (probably all wooden from that vintage) is like: as you sort one issue out, another crops up. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it will probably all work out fine - the boatyard I use when I need to come out for antifouling etc gets used for some really big renovation jobs and it's amazing what can be done with a wooden boat to fix it up, where a GRP or concrete hull with similar degree of problem would be well and truly done for. I have met serious boat builders who reckon the cost of ownership of a wooden boat can actually be lower than that of owning a GRP one - simpler systems, easier repairs, best left in water all year which can be cheaper than winter storage, etc etc. Of course there are those who would equally reasonably argue that a more modern boat might be less likely to need the repairs!

I think it all comes down to whether you like the tinkering with the thing or would prefer to have something that you can use as a boat and then leave till next time, rather than have it revert to a floating shed. If my only remaining issue was a bit of brown furry stuff that didn't bother a surveyor, I'd be feeling pretty pleased with myself :)
 
chal said:
I own a wooden boat of very similar vintage. To be honest, I think this is what owning an old boat (probably all wooden from that vintage) is like: as you sort one issue out, another crops up. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it will probably all work out fine - the boatyard I use when I need to come out for antifouling etc gets used for some really big renovation jobs and it's amazing what can be done with a wooden boat to fix it up, where a GRP or concrete hull with similar degree of problem would be well and truly done for. I have met serious boat builders who reckon the cost of ownership of a wooden boat can actually be lower than that of owning a GRP one - simpler systems, easier repairs, best left in water all year which can be cheaper than winter storage, etc etc. Of course there are those who would equally reasonably argue that a more modern boat might be less likely to need the repairs!

I think it all comes down to whether you like the tinkering with the thing or would prefer to have something that you can use as a boat and then leave till next time, rather than have it revert to a floating shed. If my only remaining issue was a bit of brown furry stuff that didn't bother a surveyor, I'd be feeling pretty pleased with myself :)
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+ 1 Well said that man.
 
chal said:
I own a wooden boat of very similar vintage. To be honest, I think this is what owning an old boat (probably all wooden from that vintage) is like: as you sort one issue out, another crops up. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it will probably all work out fine - the boatyard I use when I need to come out for antifouling etc gets used for some really big renovation jobs and it's amazing what can be done with a wooden boat to fix it up, where a GRP or concrete hull with similar degree of problem would be well and truly done for. I have met serious boat builders who reckon the cost of ownership of a wooden boat can actually be lower than that of owning a GRP one - simpler systems, easier repairs, best left in water all year which can be cheaper than winter storage, etc etc. Of course there are those who would equally reasonably argue that a more modern boat might be less likely to need the repairs!

I think it all comes down to whether you like the tinkering with the thing or would prefer to have something that you can use as a boat and then leave till next time, rather than have it revert to a floating shed. If my only remaining issue was a bit of brown furry stuff that didn't bother a surveyor, I'd be feeling pretty pleased with myself :)
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That's very encouraging... thank you.
 
Novachris said:
Hi, I am new to wooden boats, I have owned a few plastic ones in the past..anyway yesterday I went to have a look at a motor cruiser,it is a circa 1937 ex mod launch, double dia mahogany. all looked good until I looked under the deck to the shaft tunnel, there seemed to be a small patch of a brown furry stuff on the wood,the area is totally dry and sound,the owner said its been there for about ten years and even the surveyers didn't know what it is.also there is a small amount of reddish water (not diesel) in the bilges, tastes slightly salty.
i'm starting to think it is dry rot, could it be?
thanks.
Click to expand...

Are you saying YOUR surveyor did not know what it was, or is this something the seller told you?

Double diagonal from 1937 will have paint-soaked canvas between the two layers: an excellent (for it's day) construction method but not easy to repair 70 years later. A surveyor should have a look - one with experience of old wooden boats.
 
jwilson said:
Are you saying YOUR surveyor did not know what it was, or is this something the seller told you?

Double diagonal from 1937 will have paint-soaked canvas between the two layers: an excellent (for it's day) construction method but not easy to repair 70 years later. A surveyor should have a look - one with experience of old wooden boats.
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The latter. I have a wooden boat surveyor standing in the wings waiting for my go ahead.
 
The fibrous wood at the stern tube sounds like it could be electrolytic damage caused by wiring an anode to the internal stern tube. You possible need to check to see if an anode is fitted & what it is wired to. If there is one the planking around the anode fastenings might also be affected Not wise to fit anodes on timber boats. The damage they cause far exceeds the damage they prevent. This type of damage can be catastrophic to a timber boat if the stern timber has been badly affected.

John Lilley
 
Novachris said:
That's very encouraging... thank you.
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No it's not, it's rubbish. GRP hulls don't suffer major problems - they may get osmosis, but boats don't sink through osmosis. GRP boats can also happily be left in the water all year round. Everyone I know with a wooden boat spends a fortune on maintenance and very little time actually using and enjoying the boat.
 
pvb said:
No it's not, it's rubbish. GRP hulls don't suffer major problems - they may get osmosis, but boats don't sink through osmosis. GRP boats can also happily be left in the water all year round. Everyone I know with a wooden boat spends a fortune on maintenance and very little time actually using and enjoying the boat.
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Well I have a wooden boat that stays in the water all year, I spend more time sailing than maintaining and its drier internally in every way than my gorgeous HR352 ever was, then again you don't know me and lots of other wooden boat owners like me.:encouragement:
 
Eyore said:
Well I have a wooden boat that stays in the water all year, I spend more time sailing than maintaining and its drier internally in every way than my gorgeous HR352 ever was, then again you don't know me and lots of other wooden boat owners like me.:encouragement:
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I think you misunderstand, it was claimed in post #5 that wooden boats are "best left in water all year which can be cheaper than winter storage, etc", and I commented that GRP boats can also be left in the water all the time. But if you had a 352 which was wet inside, it must have had some leakage problems! Mine's very dry.
 
pvb said:
I think you misunderstand, it was claimed in post #5 that wooden boats are "best left in water all year which can be cheaper than winter storage, etc", and I commented that GRP boats can also be left in the water all the time. But if you had a 352 which was wet inside, it must have had some leakage problems! Mine's very dry.
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Apologies for misreading. The 352 was the best boat I ever owned in 30 years of "big" boat sailing but yes ,scuppers leaked, hatches, deck fittings, all got sorted eventually.
 
johnlilley said:
The fibrous wood at the stern tube sounds like it could be electrolytic damage caused by wiring an anode to the internal stern tube. You possible need to check to see if an anode is fitted & what it is wired to. If there is one the planking around the anode fastenings might also be affected Not wise to fit anodes on timber boats. The damage they cause far exceeds the damage they prevent. This type of damage can be catastrophic to a timber boat if the stern timber has been badly affected.

John Lilley
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I totally disagree with the statement that anodes should not be fitted to wooded boats. As a wooden boatbuilder and repairer with 55 years experience I would always fit a suitable anode to a wooden hull making sure that it is electrically bonded to all main under water metal masses ie. rudder, p bracket, shaft log, engine foot (common to shaft unless flexibly mounted), and keel bolt. Without an anode, the risk of damage to sterngear is far more likely than any damage to adjacent wood which is more than likely caused by a stray electrical current or a negative earth electrical system rather than a fully insulated return system (preferable).
 
pvb said:
No it's not, it's rubbish.
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Well, nice to see such a reasoned response to my attempt to be helpful. It's not "rubbish" - if anything, it's the other way round and what you say is rubbish, because:

- I did not say anything about osmosis, and in fact it's not what I had in mind: I know of a couple of boats that have been rendered uneconomic to repair by collision damage where I think a wooden hull could have been repaired (the point being, in relation no OP, that you can chop out and replace almost anything in a wooden hull)

- I did not actually "claim" anything, I made some suggestions/observations

- I know lots of owners of GRP boats who at least believe that their boats need to be taken out, even if they don't want to, at least every 2nd or 3rd year in order to dry out

- I don't actually spend any more money on maintenance than most of the people I know who own boats made of any other material: take pretty much anything and float it in salt water and it needs maintenance, and most of the bits on my boat are relatively cheap (eg there are no winches)

- wooden boats can and do spend lots of time sailing

The OP asked about a boat built in 1937. Anything that old will need maintenance, whether it's a boat, a house, a car, etc. I do point out that it won't be a sail it and walk away till next time option. Show me a maintenance-free, permanently afloat 75 year old GRP boat and then tell me what I said was rubbish
 
pvb said:
Everyone I know with a wooden boat spends a fortune on maintenance and very little time actually using and enjoying the boat.
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Extraordinary statement.

I could not afford to 'spend a fortune on maintenance' and if I did not spend time using and enjoying my boat I would have got shut years ago.

However, we don't know each other.
 
itchenseadog said:
I totally disagree with the statement that anodes should not be fitted to wooded boats. As a wooden boatbuilder and repairer with 55 years experience I would always fit a suitable anode to a wooden hull making sure that it is electrically bonded to all main under water metal masses ie. rudder, p bracket, shaft log, engine foot (common to shaft unless flexibly mounted), and keel bolt. Without an anode, the risk of damage to sterngear is far more likely than any damage to adjacent wood which is more than likely caused by a stray electrical current or a negative earth electrical system rather than a fully insulated return system (preferable).
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Well, I am puzzled by the difference of opinion.

I can only say that my wooden boat has never seen an anode in 50 years, and she is as good as the day she was launched.
 
itchenseadog said:
I totally disagree with the statement that anodes should not be fitted to wooded boats. As a wooden boatbuilder and repairer with 55 years experience I would always fit a suitable anode to a wooden hull making sure that it is electrically bonded to all main under water metal masses ie. rudder, p bracket, shaft log, engine foot (common to shaft unless flexibly mounted), and keel bolt. Without an anode, the risk of damage to sterngear is far more likely than any damage to adjacent wood which is more than likely caused by a stray electrical current or a negative earth electrical system rather than a fully insulated return system (preferable).
Click to expand...

I can only speak as I have found, but in far too many cases where I have surveyed timber boats with anodes fitted & wired up the damage caused to the timber surrounding the protected metal has been present. A build up of white crud internally at the inner stern tube & rudder tube when wired has partially destroyed the timber & in one ongoing restoration of a classic Windfall Yacht where , on the advice of a previous surveyor everything was wired up to the anode from skin fittings to keelbolts & chainplates the boat has been practically destroyed over the course of ten years after surviving 70 years without any anodes or, as importantly, without any wiring of item to item including the anode.
The trouble is that the parts of vessel destroyed are extremely difficult to replace & therefore expensive when contemplating a new aft deadwood & horn timber. The cost has in some cases exceeded £25000 to replace a electrolytically destroyed horn timber on a large timber vessel.

If the anode is not actively working then no damage occurs, but as soon as the anode becomes active, the chemical created around the areas protected (the electrolyte) destroys the timber and creates the white residual crud. It is more prevalent internally because the chemical is not diluted as it would be externally, but the damp timber allows serious concentration of the chemical (alkali) It was unusual to ever see anodes on timber vessels 35 years ago & the damage that now occurs is far more common as more owners & GRP surveyors do not realise the potential problems.. You have been very fortunate not to have encountered this serious damage in your repairs & building of timber boats.
As I said earlier, I can only comment upon my own experience in both surveying & repairing and I need no further proof of the serious damage anodes can do.

It also occurs on GRP boats surprisingly when anodes are backed up with plywood or solid wood backing plates, the timber backing softens & goes fibrous as does any backing timber used on seacocks that are wired to the anode. This is also quite regularly seen but not picked up by owners & surveyors, just making the assumption that it is bacterial decay & nothing else.

Unfortunately we have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Regards

John
 
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