Woman overboard drowned

[potentillaCO32]

Tragic event. Just goes to show how hard it is to pull someone back in, especially if they are unable to help.

P.s. when I sail, mostly single handed or with 1 other, it is easy to look over the side at the blue sea without fear or unease. I try to tell myself to treat it as if looking over the side of a 10 storey building without bannisters as the outcome of falling off is likely to be the same. Difficult to treat the risk as the same though.

 

[DreadShips]

Further to Mark's point, I think the fact the sailor involved was disabled acts as something of a smokescreen, and might encourage readers to ignore the lessons here for all of us.

There's all sorts of reasons somebody might not be able to assist in their own rescue, and here was a properly attired sailor, with an appropriate life jacket, that was apparently fitted well enough for nobody to question, and yet things went wrong very quickly. The report mentions the LJ appears to have moved around but there's little investigation into why or how.

And that's before we even get into the difficulties faced with recovering a casualty...

 

[Mark-1]

Further to Mark's point, I think the fact the sailor involved was disabled acts as something of a smokescreen, and might encourage readers to ignore the lessons here for all of us.

And it's also worth noting that, AFAICT, the nature of her disabilities were pretty much irrelevant once in the water. An overweight person who's a bit unsteady on her legs can function perfectly well in the water. They're probably better off than a skinny ultra marathon runner. (Maybe there's something I missed.)

Recovery was nigh on impossible, survival in the water for the time it takes to drag her to the beach or until a suitable recovery craft turns up could be trivial.

Perhaps the question should be, could open keelboat sailors dress like dinghy sailors? My wife describes oilies as "Dressed to drown".

 

[Supertramp]

Tragic and thought provoking. I agree that disability is contributing rather than the core issue.

The possibility that the PFD hindered her survival is of wide interest. How many of us have tested our own PFD for real and fully clothed, never mind the ensuing recovery?

Tethers do not seem to get a mention and are not something many inshore racers would use but something which stopped her (or the other crew members) going over in the first place might have made a difference. Especially where someone has restricted mobility, balance or strength.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I think tethers are not generally used because they get in the way on a boat like a Sonar. You do move around a fair bit, and tangles could potentially be life threatening of themselves.

 

[Supertramp]

I think tethers are not generally used because they get in the way on a boat like a Sonar. You do move around a fair bit, and tangles could potentially be life threatening of themselves.

Understood, but the risk judgement might be different in circumstances like this. And some sacrifice in speed. And as you say, ill judged use or attachment could create problems (think gybes). Not easy judgements to make.

My personal take is to actually test a lifejacket for real before I next replace a gas cylinder and consider elasticated tethers for my crew.

Ironically, most of the time when racing I worry less because you think you'll be picked up quickly. But it could all have gone wrong before then. My strength and agility are way off what I had 30 years ago.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Understood, but the risk judgement might be different in circumstances like this. And some sacrifice in speed. And as you say, ill judged use or attachment could create problems (think gybes). Not easy judgements to make.

My personal take is to actually test a lifejacket for real before I next replace a gas cylinder and consider elasticated tethers for my crew.

Ironically, most of the time when racing I worry less because you think you'll be picked up quickly. But it could all have gone wrong before then. My strength and agility are way off what I had 30 years ago.

Getting older, it happens to us all.

The safety of racing in a fleet, I think may be overrated. The first minute is when you need to be rescued. Not often another sailing boat could get there and carry out a rescue inside that minute. It’s your own crew, or a safety boat who have the best chance.

 

[DreadShips]

FWIW tethers are mentioned in 2.6.1 - "The use of a safety tether might have provided an appropriate barrier to Elizabeth falling overboard while still allowing her to move around the cockpit with minimum impediment and no reduction in her enjoyment of sailing."

I didn't read this as saying a tether was definitely appropriate, btw - in context the point being made is that the risk assessment didn't consider it.

 

[ylop]

You don't have to physically recover an unresponsive person in the RYA Safety Boat Course either.

I suspected that might be the case!
The RYA first aid course (unless changed) also didn’t actually try CPR within the confines of a safety boat, consider how to get the casualty back out the boat at the pontoon or along the pontoon to a safe place to work on them, and many clubs don’t have a well rehearsed shore response either - eg defib waiting for the rib, people deployed to direct ambulance crew etc. The assumption seems to be that an ambulance will be there quickly or perhaps the RNLI/CG will take over - that is probably not true in rural areas. It wasn’t clear at what point the ambulance service were contacted or provided a RVP (or by who), again unlikely in this case to have affected the outcome but IF that added delay surely lessons for all clubs?

Interestingly there's no recommendation to the RYA or anybody else to reconsider guidelines for when safety boats are necessary; the charity itself has obtained a RIB but will deploy it flexibly depending on the conditions and needs of crew.

I have concerns about the manning, training and experience of safety boat crew at RYA clubs and RTCs in general. Some are great, some are well meaning but poorly equipped/trained/organised, some are grudgingly there because it’s their turn and have a no recent training/refresher/practice of unusual problems.

Further to Mark's point, I think the fact the sailor involved was disabled acts as something of a smokescreen, and might encourage readers to ignore the lessons here for all of us.

I agree - at first read I was curious about the incident and how disability had been a factor, but really it didn’t seem to be, and it could have been any keelboat race where recovery was a struggle. Demographics of keelboat racers dont seem to be only the athletic!

Tethers do not seem to get a mention and are not something many inshore racers would use

They are briefly mentioned, but not in any sense that draws conclusions or makes recommendations. To be honest I’m not sure the MAIB understand recreational boating enough to be helpful.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Demographics in the XOD fleet, I’m in the younger 1/3rd, most are drawing their state pensions, some for many years. I think the main area where her disability was a factor was in going in the water in the first place. Witnessing it happen was pretty horrible, as I said she just went straight in, no resistance.

 

[Mark-1]

To be honest I’m not sure the MAIB understand recreational boating enough to be helpful.

I've only skim read it but they do seem to have glossed over the fact that someone drowned while wearing a device that exists soley to stop you drowning when unconscious.

Some detail on how effective LJs are at their USP, and why this one wasn't would have been useful.

 

[Marsali_1]

The Canadian Coastguard use this device on their rescue RIBs Dacon Rescue Frame - Dacon . Is it used in the UK by the RNLI or Coastguard? I have used it in training exercises both as the rescuer and the "victim". It is a simple and relatively quick process to retrieve someone but a heavier victim might require 3 rescuers to roll them up and onto the side of the RIB if there is a lot of chop.

 

[ylop]

The Canadian Coastguard use this device on their rescue RIBs Dacon Rescue Frame - Dacon . Is it used in the UK by the RNLI or Coastguard? I have used it in training exercises both as the rescuer and the "victim". It is a simple and relatively quick process to retrieve someone but a heavier victim might require 3 rescuers to roll them up and onto the side of the RIB if there is a lot of chop.

(Some of?) the larger RNLI boats use a similar concept - a fabric hoist which rolls tha casualty aboard horizontally. In fact the solution that the ACF seem to have developed/adopted looks to be a derivative of this. UK Coastguard don't operate boats (something that surprises even many locals!). Smaller RNLI ribs don't have such a system but have 3-4 crew with age/fitness requirements and are well practiced in MOB recovery. With ageing volunteers and fewer crew on board, club safety boats really should consider if they need a better system than brute force.

 

[ProMariner]

Open dayboats like Sonars, Flying Fifteens, RS 21's and X Boats are closer in safety terms to dinghies, so maybe they should race/sail in more restricted areas, with dedicated support / safety cover, like fleets of racing dinghies? I would feel naked racing a dinghy in any real wind without a dedicated safety support boat, as the risk of loosing touch with your own boat in crowded waters is quite high, as is the risk of injury, in both these situations day boats without guardrails and with low booms, manoeuvring in close waters with other similar vessels, have more in common with dinghies than with offshore yachts.

On RYA courses, I've often asked the team to lift a volunteer (often me) from lying on the pontoon to the deck, while alongside in a marina, just to get familiar with the gear and the options, it's a part of the MOB procedure that's often glossed over with many sailing schools, who get quite adept at manoeuvring back to fenders, but only cover actually recovering a crew member as a tabletop exercise. But I'll happily accept that this pales into insignificance compared to the challenges of recovering a real human being from rough waters in a bit of a breeze, in busy waters with a crew of mixed abilities and limited realistic training opportunities, in these situations the lifeboat or helicopter or any other competent nearby outside assistance are the first option, not the last.

 

[citygent111]

The Canadian Coastguard use this device on their rescue RIBs Dacon Rescue Frame - Dacon . Is it used in the UK by the RNLI or Coastguard? I have used it in training exercises both as the rescuer and the "victim". It is a simple and relatively quick process to retrieve someone but a heavier victim might require 3 rescuers to roll them up and onto the side of the RIB if there is a lot of chop.

That looks similar to the system ACF have now adopted - ACF Sailing Fast Net – Recovery System – Andrew Cassell Foundation

 

[flaming]

Open dayboats like Sonars, Flying Fifteens, RS 21's and X Boats are closer in safety terms to dinghies, so maybe they should race/sail in more restricted areas, with dedicated support / safety cover, like fleets of racing dinghies?

I'm not sure I agree with that. There are big fleets of keelboats racing around the country without safety boat cover and there isn't really a long history of incidents that would have turned out differently with safety boat cover. Those boats that are self righting don't really get into the sort of issues that dinghies do, especially around fatigued crew and capsized boats.

 

[Mark-1]

Open dayboats like Sonars, Flying Fifteens, RS 21's and X Boats are closer in safety terms to dinghies, so maybe they should race/sail in more restricted areas, with dedicated support / safety cover, like fleets of racing dinghies? I would feel naked racing a dinghy in any real wind without a dedicated safety support boat, as the risk of loosing touch with your own boat in crowded waters is quite high, as is the risk of injury, in both these situations day boats without guardrails and with low booms, manoeuvring in close waters with other similar vessels, have more in common with dinghies than with offshore yachts.

I think you're slightly overestimating the dangers of dinghy sailing.

I think you're right that this boats are more akin to dinghies than an Oyster 55 so the gear *is* relevant. I've sailed a Flying 15 and I wore dinghy gear. Google suggests that's typical of F15s. In contrast I've noticed a lot of the vintage open boat classes around the Solent wear oilies which always seems a bit odd to me, but I guess they know what works for them better than us. None the less if this poor woman had been wearing conventional dinghy gear she'd have been fine no matter how long the recovery took. Equally if her LJ had held her airway clear of the water she wouldn't have drowned, even in oilies. I really think that's the key issue here. There length of recovery shouldn't have been a matter of life and death, her clothing and ineffective LJ made it a matter of life and death. It's a shame the MAIB report didn't explore this in detail.

Having said all that, the people who sail these boats presumably understand the trade offs and they prefer to sail in oilies and they likely know what works best.

 

[ylop]

Open dayboats like Sonars, Flying Fifteens, RS 21's and X Boats are closer in safety terms to dinghies, so maybe they should race/sail in more restricted areas, with dedicated support / safety cover, like fleets of racing dinghies? I would feel naked racing a dinghy in any real wind without a dedicated safety support boat, as the risk of loosing touch with your own boat in crowded waters is quite high, as is the risk of injury, in both these situations day boats without guardrails and with low booms, manoeuvring in close waters with other similar vessels, have more in common with dinghies than with offshore yachts.

In quite a lot of time spent messing around with dinghies, some racing, some safety cover I don't actually recall anyone falling overboard when just sailing along/racing. On the other hand capsizes were very common - entanglement in trapezes or getting stuck under an inverted dinghy were the real risks we perceived that might need fast intervention. Put a big lump of lead on a keel and capsize becomes much less likely but perhaps MOB risk increases (as people tend to be less stuck to the spot)? I think applying a risk assessment and mitigation from one type of boat to another is a mistake.

 

[Mark-1]

In quite a lot of time spent messing around with dinghies, some racing, some safety cover I don't actually recall anyone falling overboard when just sailing along/racing. On the other hand capsizes were very common - entanglement in trapezes or getting stuck under an inverted dinghy were the real risks we perceived that might need fast intervention. Put a big lump of lead on a keel and capsize becomes much less likely but perhaps MOB risk increases (as people tend to be less stuck to the spot)? I think applying a risk assessment and mitigation from one type of boat to another is a mistake.

Agree, and the one time I was seriously tangled underwater in a trapeze boat there was a rescue boat on the scene immediately but there wasn't time for them to do anything useful - it was up to me to get myself out. My life expectancy underwater was defiantly less than the time they had to work out what was going on and act. I don't think rescue boats are the thing that makes dinghy sailing safe.

Then let's consider windsurfing where getting thrown clear of your 'vessel' is commonplace. Nobody windsurfs with rescue cover & I've never known anyone die windsurfing or dinghy sailing. (Unless an elderly guy who had a heart attack in a Solo counts.)

In this case her own boat had got to her conscious and talking in the water. Regardless of recovering her if they'd put a loop round her and tied her with her head well above water she wouldn't have drowned and that's likely all a 2 man rescue rib would have been able to do. (I'm really not convinced the nets are a panacea in this scenario, all the demo vids seem to be strong people recovering a light person in light clothing. Not two typical rescue crew people recovering a 125kg person in waterlogged oilies.)

So I think rescue cover is a red herring, someone in an open boat should survive long enough that a tardy rescue isn't fatal.

 

[DreadShips]

None the less if this poor woman had been wearing conventional dinghy gear she'd have been fine no matter how long the recovery took.

Is there anything in the report to substantiate this? I can't remember anything about clothing other than an estimate of how much weight her clothing added to the buoyancy required (off the top of my head it was significant, but a 150N lifejacket was still nominally good enough?)

This isn't intended to be argumentative, btw, just trying to understand what it's based on. Even if it's just vibey "dinghy gear might be better for this sort of thing" statement, it's potentially a useful thing to consider.