Graham376
Well-Known Member
Anyone know what happened? Two crew still on board also needed treatment which seems odd. Woman dies falling overboard from yacht off Isle of Wight coast (msn.com)
Woman overboard drowned
- Thread starter Graham376
- Start date
mjcoon
Well-Known Member
The pattern would seem odd if the problem was nautical. But if, for instance, CO poisoning or other medical matter, less so...
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Theres a lot less mystery than it currently appears, but as the matter is heading for a full enquiry, those concerned would be grateful if wild speculation was kept to a minimum.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
There but for the grace of God...
Sympathies to all concerned.
When the conclusions of the enquiry are known , I'd be grateful if a link could be posted, so we can see if there are lessons for the rest of us.
Sympathies to all concerned.
When the conclusions of the enquiry are known , I'd be grateful if a link could be posted, so we can see if there are lessons for the rest of us.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I’m happy to do that. I will add the details I know when it’s appropriate to do so.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
Is there any generic information you can share - eg sailing yacht, dayboat or power yacht? whilst racing or cruising?
There was a lot of activity in the Solent at the weekend, including lots of racing
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
As I’ll almost certainly have to take part in the various enquiries, I think it’s best I do not feed any speculation, nor disclose anything that might influence others’ testimony. Sorry.
Mister E
Well-Known Member
In that case you must remain quiet and nor say any more.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
We’d probably forgotten all about this
Charity crew 'insufficiently trained' to save drowning woman
In spite of being a nearby boat, taking an active part in the attempted rescue, well, as active as they’d let us take, none of us gave any more than initial statements. We still think we could have got the poor woman aboard, though it was almost certainly all over in the first 30 seconds..
Charity crew 'insufficiently trained' to save drowning woman
In spite of being a nearby boat, taking an active part in the attempted rescue, well, as active as they’d let us take, none of us gave any more than initial statements. We still think we could have got the poor woman aboard, though it was almost certainly all over in the first 30 seconds..
DreadShips
Well-Known Member
I read the MAIB report this morning. Food for thought.
(And as ever, my respect for all those who rushed to give assistance - apparently even before the mayday call)
(And as ever, my respect for all those who rushed to give assistance - apparently even before the mayday call)
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
Go on - go on - go on - go on - go on.....
ylop
Well-Known Member
A sad situation.
The MAIB report has some slightly odd things in (or indeed not in) it:
1. They mention in passing that RYA training typically uses a fender or similar for testing return to the casualty rather than a realistic weighted dummy. There are (I think) good reasons for not using a weighted dummy everywhere MOB recovery is tackled but it strikes me as odd that realistic dummies are not even encouraged when tied up at a pontoon (or similar) to give candidates a proper understanding of the challenges and techniques that might be helpful. It seems to be Ok in RYA training to discuss those approaches rather than try them for real. They suggest that the organisation should have done it - but in real life I find it hard to imagine organisations buying training equipment to do simulation training which is not required by the RYA syllabus - I was surprised not to see any recommendations for the RYA more generally to consider the adequacy of discussing rather than practicing getting realistic casualties on board…
2. The report makes an unreferenced claim that “the general advice is that a call for assistance should always be made when a person goes overboard in the U.K.”. I know that topic generates mixed feelings amongst sailors (I agree with it). It seems that around 6 minutes were “wasted” before help was summonsed. It may not have made any difference but that seems like something other skippers maybe can learn from - accept it’s going to be hard even if you are strong and practiced and get help ASAP; even if you manage they may need urgent medical attention.
3. The report describes them quickly making contact with the casualty and she was conscious and responsive - but I think in an effort to avoid the shore the skipper began sailing essentially with her “in tow” - no analysis of whether that might have contributed to the decline in condition and thus if it’s a practice others may wish to avoid. Incidents on larger yachts suggest that it may be an issue forcing water into/over the casualty.
4. The report makes quite a fuss about the ambiguity around “pleasure boat” (which I read between the lines to mean the MAIB think it probably is not, but the ACFs lawyers disagree!). They’ve suggested the MCA need to review the definition - but the definition comes from the merchant shipping act, it is not the MCA’s remit to change it - Parliament would need to. Given the boat wasn’t “at sea” and they seem to concede the LA probably weren’t going to license it as it wasn’t “for hire” it’s really not clear that they’ve actually proposed any meaningful improvement. That’s without asking if the racing exemptions in MGN280 could apply.
The MAIB report has some slightly odd things in (or indeed not in) it:
1. They mention in passing that RYA training typically uses a fender or similar for testing return to the casualty rather than a realistic weighted dummy. There are (I think) good reasons for not using a weighted dummy everywhere MOB recovery is tackled but it strikes me as odd that realistic dummies are not even encouraged when tied up at a pontoon (or similar) to give candidates a proper understanding of the challenges and techniques that might be helpful. It seems to be Ok in RYA training to discuss those approaches rather than try them for real. They suggest that the organisation should have done it - but in real life I find it hard to imagine organisations buying training equipment to do simulation training which is not required by the RYA syllabus - I was surprised not to see any recommendations for the RYA more generally to consider the adequacy of discussing rather than practicing getting realistic casualties on board…
2. The report makes an unreferenced claim that “the general advice is that a call for assistance should always be made when a person goes overboard in the U.K.”. I know that topic generates mixed feelings amongst sailors (I agree with it). It seems that around 6 minutes were “wasted” before help was summonsed. It may not have made any difference but that seems like something other skippers maybe can learn from - accept it’s going to be hard even if you are strong and practiced and get help ASAP; even if you manage they may need urgent medical attention.
3. The report describes them quickly making contact with the casualty and she was conscious and responsive - but I think in an effort to avoid the shore the skipper began sailing essentially with her “in tow” - no analysis of whether that might have contributed to the decline in condition and thus if it’s a practice others may wish to avoid. Incidents on larger yachts suggest that it may be an issue forcing water into/over the casualty.
4. The report makes quite a fuss about the ambiguity around “pleasure boat” (which I read between the lines to mean the MAIB think it probably is not, but the ACFs lawyers disagree!). They’ve suggested the MCA need to review the definition - but the definition comes from the merchant shipping act, it is not the MCA’s remit to change it - Parliament would need to. Given the boat wasn’t “at sea” and they seem to concede the LA probably weren’t going to license it as it wasn’t “for hire” it’s really not clear that they’ve actually proposed any meaningful improvement. That’s without asking if the racing exemptions in MGN280 could apply.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
We were there unasked in 5-6 minutes. We’d pulled nearly a leg ahead of the boat, so were downwind, though clearly not far away. We saw her go over, so started back immediately, knowing it was a ACF boat. As ypu all can see, it was a Sonar. We were in an XOD, the Dulux dog in fact, from the dulux paint thread currently in PBO. We felt we had less freeboard, and might have had a better chance of getting the casualty on board. She appeared to be unresponsive by this time though. If I was in a position to make a recommendation, it would be about safety boat cover. The CCYC sent a 20ft aluminium high sided craft, with 2 older gents on board. Well meaning and experienced I have no doubt, but they’d have been better able to help from a smaller RIB (wet and uncomfortable) or, in my personal experience with disabled sailing, something with access. It wasn’t rough, it can be bad there in wind over tide.
The other place to examine is how and why she went overboard in the first place. I am sure the ACF have thought about this. The casualty was a wheelchair user, though able to walk unaided for short periods, she was on her feet at CCYC before the race. She was tall, big, though not obese. A lot of weight to lift though.She just disappeared from the side, straight over, no apparent attempt to save herself. My first thought was that she’d passed out. I was surprised to learn she’d been conscious and responsive.
The other place to examine is how and why she went overboard in the first place. I am sure the ACF have thought about this. The casualty was a wheelchair user, though able to walk unaided for short periods, she was on her feet at CCYC before the race. She was tall, big, though not obese. A lot of weight to lift though.She just disappeared from the side, straight over, no apparent attempt to save herself. My first thought was that she’d passed out. I was surprised to learn she’d been conscious and responsive.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
You don't have to physically recover an unresponsive person in the RYA Safety Boat Course either.
The report says:
Had an ACF safety boat been in attendance, it is likely the occupants would have been qualified to RYA Level 2 Powerboat Handling and would not have had the necessary training, skills, equipment or experience to effect Elizabeth’s immediate recovery.
Of course a RIB could have held her head out of the water so she wouldn't drown and dragged her to shallow water so ultimately it would have likely saved the day.
FWIW if she'd be dressed for dinghy sailing - wetsuit/drysuit buoyancy aid - she'd have been fine, just as a dinghy sailor would be. But in the next incident she might have got clouted by the boom and needed the LJ.
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Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
There was a boat in attendance. Just not a ‘rescue’ boat.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Especially heeled over. I'm guessing the right boat could heel over to the point where the freeboard is zero.
Assuming there are buoyancy tanks, if it floods that makes it even easier, just bale out out once she's in and all step onto another boat to warm up.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Exactly. All 3 of us on the side, plus lifting the casualty the last bit, freeboard would be minimal. Our 3rd crew was highly first aid trained too, a police officer. No buoyancy tanks in an XOD of course.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
I read that but presumably she was already unconscious by then.
DreadShips
Well-Known Member
On the safety boat point, the MAIB are clear that the CCYC boat was not intended as one -
"The Cowes Corinthian Yacht Club had a committee boat on the water, but it was neither acting as a safety boat nor equipped to fulfil the role."
Interestingly there's no recommendation to the RYA or anybody else to reconsider guidelines for when safety boats are necessary; the charity itself has obtained a RIB but will deploy it flexibly depending on the conditions and needs of crew.
"The Cowes Corinthian Yacht Club had a committee boat on the water, but it was neither acting as a safety boat nor equipped to fulfil the role."
Interestingly there's no recommendation to the RYA or anybody else to reconsider guidelines for when safety boats are necessary; the charity itself has obtained a RIB but will deploy it flexibly depending on the conditions and needs of crew.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Thinking about it, the problem here is that she drowned, all the other problems are secondary. She was never going to be in long enough to die from exposure so the length of time to recovery isn't critical as long as her airway is clear of the water. Even without a spray hood you'd hope a LJ could handle the shelter of the Solent on a pretty average sailing day.
Having said that when they were about 24 months old we tested our kids LJs on tbe beach and their mouths were terrifyingly close to the surface. There is no way the LJs would have worked in anywhere other than a swimming pool and even then it would have been iffy. We chose not to sail dinghies with them until they could swim for that reason. Once they could swim, in buoyancy aids their mouths were well clear of the water.
Having said that when they were about 24 months old we tested our kids LJs on tbe beach and their mouths were terrifyingly close to the surface. There is no way the LJs would have worked in anywhere other than a swimming pool and even then it would have been iffy. We chose not to sail dinghies with them until they could swim for that reason. Once they could swim, in buoyancy aids their mouths were well clear of the water.