Wing wang...anybody tried a directable bowsprit?

[Greenheart]

I've never seen a so-called wing-wang being used, and there's scarcely anything about them on the internet.

Apparently angling the bowsprit opposite the mainsail (and thereby out of the main's wind-shadow) allows an asymmetric spinnaker to hold its shape even dead downwind. The wing-wang is the tackle which allows port/starboard adjustment.

It seems they're used on a handful of high performance dinghies, but of course they mainly take advantage of their planing ability, for reaching more rapidly in downwind diagonals than they could ever go with the wind following directly...

...but wouldn't the same principle allow a non-racing boat to fly an asymmetric through all points offwind? Not so efficient as a conventional kite perhaps, but less bother than faffing with an airborne pole and multiplicity of lines?

Anything anyone knows about the system will be more than I know at the moment, so thanks in advance.

 

[snowleopard]

Apparently angling the bowsprit opposite the mainsail (and thereby out of the main's wind-shadow)

Not exactly what you're referring to but take a look at this...

 

[DJE]

Used them on an RS400 and a Bull7000 both fast planing boats but the swinging bowsprits allow you to sail deeper angles with the kite still pulling. You still don't go dead downwind.
On the Sadler 29 we used to set the cruising chute from the end of the pole to sail very deep or even dead downwind. But it is a lot of work setting it up and gybing it is a nightmare.

 

[Greenheart]

Hmm, thanks for those observations.

What I suppose I'm getting at, is if a swinging bowsprit could be rigged on the foredeck without generating an impractical tangle, would the increased usability of the asymmetric be so great as to bury any nostalgic fondness for the symmetric spinnaker, pole, uphaul, downhaul, sheets, guys, etc...

...or would having the asymmetric's tack positioned several feet off the centreline, not help as much as I'm hoping?

The only descriptions I can find of the RS400's wing-wang set-up, seem to draw attention to its vulnerability to cock-ups...

...but why would the class persevere with a swinging sprit if there weren't an advantage in it? Especially a class which (I'm guessing) mainly sails brisk broad reaches downwind?

 

[DJE]

Asymmetric boats usually race upwind / downwind courses. If you can maintain planing speed at a deeper angle then your vmg will improve and it's vmg that matters on a dead downwind leg.
Both the Bull and the RS had well engineered hardware for the sprit but it certainly increases the workload in the gybes. Single-handed (which I believe is your preference) you are going to be very busy. Leave the pole pointing downwind after a gybe and you risk getting it in the water which can get very messy very quickly. Also you have to get the pole in the right position to retract it after a drop.

 

[Greenheart]

Excellent advice, thank you DJE. And you read my mind, re singlehanding.

But the same weed of an idea keeps returning as sounding like less trouble for one man than my bag-bound symmetric spinnaker, so watch this space for some photos of my misadventures.

Just another thought...is my existing 8ft spinnaker pole likely to be suitable as a bowsprit, or are purpose-made sprits something more flexible?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

All those little Mini 6.50s use these single handed. Take a look at the outrigger layout they use for control.
I look forward to the day someone puts the tack of a headsail on a traveller for the same reason. I think I had that idea first time in the 80's but still haven't seen it implemented.

 

[lw395]

.....
Just another thought...is my existing 8ft spinnaker pole likely to be suitable as a bowsprit, or are purpose-made sprits something more flexible?

The sprit on an RS400 is a pretty solid item, it is under a lot of stress. It needs to be much stronger than a spinnaker pole intended for 'normal' use.
When they changed to carbon from ali, a lot of the early ones broke!
When it's really windy, you tend to centre the pole before gybing, so I'm sure it would be OK to do that singlehanded.
The pole on a 400 only moves about 15 degrees.
You might find it interesting to look at the 'Alto' dinghy, which has a different arrangement, allowing the pole to come much further back.
A search of the y and y forum will bring up lots of opinions.
But, there are dinghies with non-adjustable sprits which can (usefully) sail deeper than an RS400. It's as much to do with the sail shape as with moving the tack a couple of feet to windward. The compromise is that a full-headed asy kite which goes deep well will be poor on a tight reach.

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks again for good points.

It's all academic at the moment because even though I paid for the used sail two weeks ago, it hasn't arrived yet (that's making me a bit nervous in itself...it only needed bagging and mailing from Plymouth...what the heck's delaying it?) so it's entirely possible that the sail is wholly the wrong shape. It was just a cheery winter punt at a nice idea, which may turn out to be a rather costly catastrophe.

But, I must admit, I was surprised at how close to perfect my 8ft spinnaker pole looks, on my foredeck - it lies along one or other gunwale ahead of the sidedeck with just an inch or so prodding out beside the forestay, and if I put something like a rowlock socket up there, the pole will be 'pointable' with a bit of neat ropework, either straight ahead or to port/starboard as the situation requires...

...trouble is, now that I'm thinking about it, the pole has several old fairlead holes drilled in its mid-point, exactly where I was thinking it would pivot, so that's probably its weakest point...

...so, I ask you gentlemen who certainly know more about asymmetrics than me (you couldn't know less), if I stick to wind-speeds in single figures, (the plan was only ever for a bit of boost in light airs) am I still likely to bend my perfectly good spin pole?

What cheap, readily available material would be better? Maybe an old windsurfer mast?

 

[Woodlouse]

Class 40s use them too. The idea is pretty similar to flying an asymmetric off a pole which also allows you to sail much further down wind.

 

[DJE]

What cheap, readily available material would be better? Maybe an old windsurfer mast?

Nothing wrong with the material but the tube diameter and wall thickness might not be adequate! And you are right to worry about those holes. A conventional spinaker only carries compressive forces whereas a bowsprit (unless it has stays) will carry bending moments. What diameter is your spinaker pole? From memory the RS400 sprit is about 50mm.

 

[Mister Rhino]

There is a chapter on their use on big cruising boats in the Dashew's off-shore cruising encyclopedia.

Don't know if it is available on line.

 

[Hambler Rambler]

I've never seen a so-called wing-wang being used, and there's scarcely anything about them on the internet.

If you watch some youtube videos of RS400s being sailed you'll see it in action. When looking forward from the stern of the boat the wing wang control is a couple of lines with plastic handles on the end hanging out of the back of the thwart close to the centre of the boat. When the kite is gybed, the windward line is uncleated and the new one pulled on (a motion a bit like starting an outboard...)

The way it works is that the pole is sitting in a triangular shaped space and the wing wang is just a loop of line over the pole pulling it to one side of the triangle. So the pole can be centred by pulling both lines tight and cleating them both.

 

[lw395]

Thanks again for good points.

It's all academic at the moment because even though I paid for the used sail two weeks ago, it hasn't arrived yet (that's making me a bit nervous in itself...it only needed bagging and mailing from Plymouth...what the heck's delaying it?) so it's entirely possible that the sail is wholly the wrong shape. It was just a cheery winter punt at a nice idea, which may turn out to be a rather costly catastrophe.

But, I must admit, I was surprised at how close to perfect my 8ft spinnaker pole looks, on my foredeck - it lies along one or other gunwale ahead of the sidedeck with just an inch or so prodding out beside the forestay, and if I put something like a rowlock socket up there, the pole will be 'pointable' with a bit of neat ropework, either straight ahead or to port/starboard as the situation requires...

...trouble is, now that I'm thinking about it, the pole has several old fairlead holes drilled in its mid-point, exactly where I was thinking it would pivot, so that's probably its weakest point...

...so, I ask you gentlemen who certainly know more about asymmetrics than me (you couldn't know less), if I stick to wind-speeds in single figures, (the plan was only ever for a bit of boost in light airs) am I still likely to bend my perfectly good spin pole?

What cheap, readily available material would be better? Maybe an old windsurfer mast?

The load is quite high on a 400 even at say 10knots true wind, if you power the kite up so you are sat out.
The point is that the sprit is unstayed, the load from the tack has huge leverage against the bow. The wing-wang is a 4:1 tackle, and with that handle, you can pull hard on it, but still, to pull it on, it's normal to do a little bear-away to take the load off the kite for a second.
Maybe a section of old dinghy mast?
Something you can find in the scrap pile I suggest!

Obviously the point loads on the bow are considerable too.
Perhaps you won't have a crew sat out, but the Osprey has some weight, which give the sail something to pull against in a gust, so the loads won't we a whole lot less?
Unless you are just ghosting along in not much apparent wind.

 

[langstonelayabout]

OK, I tried this with my old E-Boat and an old no.3 skiff spinnaker a few years ago.

First tried on a broad reach from Priory Bay to Langstone entrance, I tied my normal spinnaker pole along the Lee toerail so that it protruded about 75cm from the bow roller. I hoisted it in the Lee of the Genoa and then pulled the tack to the end of the pole.

Yes, the boat speed increased remarkably and I made Langstone entrance in record time. Just off, I let the tack rope go and lowered into the cabin, big smile in place.

For the duration, the spinnaker pole had been flexing wildly but remained un-bent. Worth doing again (I did with others on board on a few occasions) but the spi pole was the weak point and always flexed wildly. I never used the spi in more than 10 knots.

Well worth doing, I've read of others using scaffold poles (!) but would prefer an oversize pole or section of broken mast to do it on my current boat.

Try it, you'll like it but unless you're spending plenty of cash on a wingwang pole system forget about moving the pole from side to side...

 

[laika]

Didn't P J O'Rourke write something about How To Sail Fast....Oh no wait that was something else...

 

[lw395]

......
....Well worth doing, I've read of others using scaffold poles (!) but would prefer an oversize pole or section of broken mast to do it on my current boat.

Try it, you'll like it but unless you're spending plenty of cash on a wingwang pole system forget about moving the pole from side to side...

If you are only looking to put the tack a metre or so forward of the bow, ALLOY scaff pole is not such a bad idea.
It's cheap, and you can drill and tap it etc.
I'd probably look for a much thinner wall and sleeve the inboard end though.
If you happen to have a bit of old windsurfer mast handy, maybe beef up the inner end with more glass and epoxy?

 

[Keen_Ed]

I look forward to the day someone puts the tack of a headsail on a traveller for the same reason. I think I had that idea first time in the 80's but still haven't seen it implemented.

Illegal under racing rules.

54 FORESTAYS AND HEADSAIL TACKS
Forestays and headsail tacks, except those of spinnaker staysails when the boat is not close-hauled, shall be attached approximately on a boat’s centreline.

 

[lw395]

Illegal under racing rules.

54 FORESTAYS AND HEADSAIL TACKS
Forestays and headsail tacks, except those of spinnaker staysails when the boat is not close-hauled, shall be attached approximately on a boat’s centreline.

I think that can be changed under class rules?
I think some boomed jibs move the tack a few inches to windward?

 

[Keen_Ed]

I think that can be changed under class rules?
I think some boomed jibs move the tack a few inches to windward?

Yes, it can be changed under class rules, but that implies a class that is happy to take the engineering risk (and risks to class stability). Don't know of a class that has changed that rule. But I haven't looked much.

AIUI, most radio sailing boats use a form of balanced, boomed jib. I would imagine there are forestay/jib leech tension issues on full size example.