Wind terbines

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

I only know one wind farm at all well, at Tow law in Co Durham. Whenever I see it, the blades are spinning sedately. I perfectly accept that conventional capacity has to be kept on standby, but on standby it is producing far less emissions than it is at full belt. Also, weather forecasting - although inexact, as any sailor knows - can generally work out whether there is going to be wind, or not, allowing gas and oil fired stations to be brought quickly online in advance of calms.

But I agree, the wind, though an infinite resource, is not a reliable one. Tide, however, is both infinite and reliable, and at last we are beginning to see some effort going into 'in-stream' tide power generation (as opposed to barrage generation which has a restricted number of possible sites and big environmental implications).

In any case, one day coal, oil and gas will become increasingly scarce, and will become increasingly expensive to extract, while Uranium 238 will continue to have a frighteningly long half-life of 4.5 billion years. We have to find a sustainable energy resource at some point, so why is wrong to start now?

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[pugwash]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

"on standby it is producing far less emissions..."
No, that's what wind supporters keep saying and they are wrong. A conventional coal-fired generator on "hot standby" emits more pollution than - or as much as - one running normally. It is n0t the experience of transmission companies in Denmark or Germany that weather forecasting is so exact.

I agree that tidal stream technology (huge underwater props off Start Point, Lizard, Alderney Race, etc) are much more promising precisely because they are reliable. And I certainly go along with the idea of developing renewable energy as fast as possible. But politicians and others seem to be blind to the practical and technical deficiencies of wind. Even the arch-Green James Lovelock of Gaia fame a couple of days ago said he regretted backing wind power and said it was "no more than a gesture." The Green lobby in general (not speaking of individuals) seems to take the view that if you question the engineering realities of wind power you are somehow against providing a better world for your children. This is nonsense. The point is that people believe wind energy is the answer. It isn't. It's a political con-trick and we'd be much better off spending all this money on renewable energy schemes that will pay off. So say the Royal Academy of Engineering plus Imperial College plus a host of high-level experts. And so, as it happens, do a lot of experts in Denmark whose sad example we are hell-bent on emulating.

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[Sybarite]

<< the installers have agreed a minimum clearance of 20m between the bottom of the blades and MHWS.>>

Waves ??

John


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[halcyon]

Re: NIMBY becomes NIMSL

But you don't get one, you get 7 sq mile or 70 sq mile of them.

Brian

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[qsiv]

Re: NIMBY becomes NIMSL

Precisely. In my past experience knowing where it is isn't enough. For next season I'm very keen to avoid any 'Practical Hydrography' style experiments - I'm just a touch precious about that forward rudder!

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[Heckler]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

not picking on you but in north wales we have several storage power stations, during times of low power demand they pump water from a lower lake to a higher lake, when demand rises they dump the water back down thru turbines, it is apparently almost instantaneous and can cope well with cup of tea halfway thru a good tv prog. dont know how many we have got but they demolish the argument that the wind doesnt blow all the time. plus i would rather see more lakes and pump stations being built, most people are not even aware where they are, the most famous is in llanberis inside the mountain.
the argument against the offshore turbines is that they use more power to make them than they produce in their lifetime so the net effect is that they use more fossil fuel or nuke to produce than they produce themselves. (thanks roy ryder for that info)
stu


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[pugwash]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

What you describe is in most ways a perfect system but no more suitable sites are available in the UK. At present, hydro provides (I think) two percent of our electricity and that's it. If we were Norway or New Zealand it might be different. I rather think lanberris is the only one but could be wrong.

The argument that wind turbines consume more power in their manufacture than they produce rages in all directions. I have never heard it expressed to quite that extreme. The manufacturers concede a few months, five or so at most, but don't count roads, concrete for foundations, transmission lines, all that stuff. To be fair, you'd have to compare the numbers with the manufacturing costs and pollution budgets of other systems. This question is largely a side show. The fact is that all these windmills will do very little to address our energy demands, especially with nuclear stations (providing 28 percent, from memory) being switched off during the next few years.



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[Heckler]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

theres another one at maentwrog, another on the right on the road to port madoc on the llanberis to portmadoc road
stu

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

Expanding on your comment re Norway and New Zealand -

Even out here in NZ there are only a couple of significant hydro opportunities left. One is trying to proceed towards development now but is meeting alot of environmental opposition from people who would rather see wind farms. However, those same people have no concept whatsoever as to how many wind generators it takes to substitute for even just one 1000 Mw station, let alone substitute for more than a minute fraction of total demand.

When the showers start running cold we will eventually move to a nuclear future.

John

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[BrendanS]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

NZ= Geothermal/Hydrothermal?

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[halcyon]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

We had Geothermal development by us in Cornwall, the Hot Rocks project, closed down. Now run as a private company, but not working on national power anymore.

Brian

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[BrendanS]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

Probably not the best placed site to try geothermal. The best sites are where there are active geothermal activity and the UK is not best suited to that.

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

I suspect even in hot geothermal places like out here, it cannot be a big ticket item.

Geothermal only supplies a very small part of our total electricity demand here and has problems with things like ground subsidence as the water table lowers, depositing of heavy metals (including mercury) into whatever the condensate goes into, etc.

Nothing like a good nuclear plant - as one who has worked in the hydro electricity industry I have to say that I would rather live next to a nuclear plant than live under a dam. Have visited hydro facilities in various parts of the world and interestingly of the three or four underground plants I have been in (deep undergraound ones that is, not the ones cut into a hillside or similar), all had flooded themselves by accident at some stage - although I have to say that the only underground hydro station in NZ (Manapouri) has not suffered that fate.

John

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[SteveA]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

Without getting into the political/greeen issues argument I am concerned about the growth of these wind farms - but only from a boaty point of view.
Living and sailing in the NW of England there are, I think, 3 areas to be developed from the round 1 , off Blackpool, Walney and in the Solway Firth. The round 2 involves much greater areas being allocated; particularly off Walney and the Duddon estuary.
The main concerns I have are the rumours that they cause serious radio and GPS problems and that there will be exclusion zones around them. I have been to presentations about the windfarm off Walney where they stated that there would not be any exclusion zones but from my professional position I know that this is not the case!
I would be ineresting to also know what effects there will be on wind speeds/directions and radar.

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[pugwash]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

The biggest objector to land-based windfarm proposals has been the Ministry of Defence. Perhaps for this reason.

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[Twister_Ken]

Cynic replies on MOD objections

Or perhaps because Britain's starving upland farmers are keen to get their horny hands on wind farm money, whereas the MOD don't give a stuff as they have very comfortable livings thanks to our taxes.

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[jimi]

Re: Wind energy is a vain green dream

Good news for future enemies .. no need for expensive blocking stuff .. just start a big generator up and, poof, our forces do'nt know where they are and can't talk to each other .. modern army .. do'nt get me started!

<hr width=100% size=1>.. whit way roon should it be again ..

 

[halcyon]

Re: Wind Turbines

Having had it explained how wind power is so much safer than fossil fuel, I thought it interesting a news item on the radio this afternoon.
A GP from Cornwall is asking the goverment to stop wind power installation, as it may be a danger to health. After a survey of people living by the windfarm at Wadebridge. They suffer headaches, and similar, depending on wind speed and direction, but not if the are away from home. It is put down to a low frequency pulse generated by the blades.

Funny old world.

Brian


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