Wind speed, where do you draw the line in small boats?

[Seajet]

I know Jumbleduck,

and second this.

Don't go, stay fettling or anything else !

Edit

in light of your post which just came in front of mine, STILL don't do it Steve, it's getting cold and all the nav problems Jumbleduck mentions still apply.

A hardened roughty toughty sailor wouldn't think twice about the trip; he wouldn't do it and stay in his comfy bunk !

Those battery nav lights, if the things commonly known, are invisible to ships or fishing boats untill they've just run over you, " did you feel something just then No. 1 ? ...

Please understand this is not us trying to be smartarses, we are genuinely worried you are taking on too much too soon...

I am no RKJ but I have instructed a far bit, could you make it to Chichester for a few days spin ?

Andy

 

[grumpy_o_g]

It's not what the conditions are I worry about, so much as what they are going to be. The three big gotcha's to my mind would be:

• Wind getting up after you have set off (either from a depression/front coming through or, probably less likely in the Galloway area, because of thunderstorms, Katabatic winds, etc.).
• Sea state changing drastically because the current has changed (tide usually, but other things can cause the same problem of course) or because the wind has changed direction (see fronts, etc. above).
• Sailing off happily on a broad reach with the sun shining down into the cockpit and then hardening up to be close-hauled into nasty chop and strong wind that "appeared out of nowhere". For some reason the Sun always seems to go in when this happens.

You can usually stick your nose out and suck it and see if it's comfortable and then turn back if it's not if nothing changes but with the above scenarios you just have to man up and cope with it (which isn't what leisure sailing's about for me).

I'd also get yourself familiar with high winds, heavy seas, and reefing and furling before attempting a serious passage. It's VERY different when it's pitch dark and you've left it too late or have to take a third reef with the wind howling and the boat bouncing around like a punk at Clash concert).

Having seen Jumbleduck's post and quickly looked at the passage I agree with him totally (though, given his experience and local knowledge, it would be fairly irrelevant if I didn't frankly. Even in something a lot bigger and with an experienced crew and a good, reliable engine I'd be looking at the M6 to get to Galloway for the first time on a night approach in high winds. The forecast is basically the usual Sept/Oct/Nov lows tromping across so you'll potentially have fronts coming through and timing the actual arrival of just the depression never mind the fronts can be tricky so I think you've managed to get just about every reason not to do this in one hit.

Maybe take the opportunity to get out and try the boat in some higher winds near your homeport rather than commit to a pretty tricky passage in perfect conditions?

 

[steve yates]

I appreciate your concern guys, I'm not ignoring you, I will have a think about what you said.
Fwiw, here is my thinking in more detail.
The forecast for tue/wed is fairly good, and it's neap tides, so the tidal currents will be weaker than normal.

Tue is looking at nnw winds, force 2. I was planning on heading west from maryport about 7am, taking the ebb tide towards the two foot bank bouy, till I'm past robin rigg, ( this keeps me mostly in deeper water and away from all the banks to east of robin rigg on the direct route)then turning ne towards Hestan Island with the flood. That's approx 15 nm on a reach of some description mostly. Hw at kippford is around 6pm, and I can anchor at hestan or in horse isle bay taking the ground if I don't make kippford itself.
Wednesday is forecast force 3, now swinging w, then swing sw and increasing to force 4/5 near sunset.

By reversing Tuesdays route, I leave early morning with the ebb helping me sw until past robinrigg, then turning east to maryport, when the tide turns and starts heading back up the Solway, giving me a push from both wind and tide towards port. The lock gate will open just before 6.
I should mostly have the wind and tides in my favour out and back.

The obvious risk is the winds coming earlier than forecast, and I will wait and see till the last minute, I'm quite prepared to call it off if the forecast is against me. It looks ok at the moment.
My get out is when I reach robin rigg, if I think the winds are stronger than forecast, ie, we'd weather arriving on tue, I can turn around and reach back for maryport with the flood after lunchtime.

I realise I'm inexperienced, but I don't think I'm stupid, I'd appreciate any comments or critiques on those ideas, and I will consider them all.
At the end of the day I will always use my own judgement, but please don't think I am being disrespectful or flippant.
I trust my judgement, especially filtered through more experienced folks thoughts.
Right at this moment, I think it's a good idea, but only if the forecast is accurate. If it looks like changing, so will the plan. If it feels it's changed on the day, so will I.

 

[Seajet]

Steve,

is there any remote weather real-time service on or near your route like harbour mouths / harbour masters etc ?

Down here in the softy south we have a wonderful asset now, ' Chimet ' which gives out the current wind speed & direction along with a lot of other stuff re wave heights etc, this is pure gold at a sometimes dodgy entrance like Chichester, it covers other prime places in the Solent too.

A sort of earlier variant on this would be to note the phone numbers of harbour masters and ask ' what conditions have you got there ? ' Before departure and maybe along the way.

I still say this proposed trip is over-ambitious from what I hear of the area, take it easy, go out of your harbour and practice, ' man overboard ' with a fender tied to a bucket is a good exercise in handling - even if you sail alone...

Have Fun,

Andy

 

[JumbleDuck]

Sorry jumble duck, I wasn't being very clear, I meant overnight as in going out in the morning, sleeping inboard at the destination, and sailing back next day
No way was I thinking
of doing that at night, my nav lights don't even work. I bought some little clip on cycling lights mentioned by Phil the cow man on his laynee blog just in case I get caught out, but that's just ass covering, I have no intention of needing them in anger yet.

OK, not doing at night is a big improvement and relieves my mind a lot, but all the other issues stand, and in particular the timings at the Galloway end. If you aim to get to the entrance of the Urr at half tide and rising in daylight then coming up the river should be fine - but be aware that the channel is effectively unmarked at the moment and it's very tortuous. It might be better to aim for the Dee instead, which has a well marked channel and also good anchorages around Ross Island if you need to wait for the tide.

What sailing directions do you have? You really should have either the Clyde Cruising Club one (Firth of Clyde & Irish Sea) or the South West Scotland Sailing Association one.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Unfortunately I shall be away on Tuesday/Wednesday or I'd have come to wherever to get to to say "hello".

 

[steve yates]

Checking conditions at the other end is a good idea, thanks.
I have both of those jumble duck, I also only draw 1.3 m and can lift the keel. The swssa guide says there is no need to stick with the channel 2 hrs either side of hw if you draw 1.5m or less? Although I have every intention of sticking with it.
Or staying at hestan instead if I don't fancy it.
I will also turn back if I'm not off robin rigg by 12pm as that will tell me I'm going too slow.
Plus I have checked the bus times to Dumfries and back to Carlisle if I don't like the look of the crossing back on Wednesday.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Tue is looking at nnw winds, force 2. I was planning on heading west from maryport about 7am, taking the ebb tide towards the two foot bank bouy, till I'm past robin rigg, ( this keeps me mostly in deeper water and away from all the banks to east of robin rigg on the direct route)then turning ne towards Hestan Island with the flood. That's approx 15 nm on a reach of some description mostly. Hw at kippford is around 6pm, and I can anchor at hestan or in horse isle bay taking the ground if I don't make kippford itself.

With a NNW wind that'll mainly be beating to windward, which will be slow and tiring. Otherwise it sounds like a good plan. Horse Isles Bay, just north of Almorness Point, is a nice spot to dry out and avoids the problems of getting up the Urr. If you do get to Kippford, by the way, don't be tempted to try out alongside the new pontoon by Kippford slipway, as the bottom there is on a heck of a slope. You can use the Solway YC pontoon for a small fee. I'd suggest planning for the Dee/Kirkcudbright as well, just in case the wind makes getting to the Urr unpleasant.

By reversing Tuesdays route, I leave early morning with the ebb helping me sw until past robinrigg, then turning east to maryport, when the tide turns and starts heading back up the Solway, giving me a push from both wind and tide towards port. The lock gate will open just before 6.
I should mostly have the wind and tides in my favour out and back.

Sounds OK, but don't leave too early. You'd probably get back from Hestan to Maryport in five hours at most, and I imagine that hanging around outside there in an onshore wind could be a bit unpleasant.

I realise I'm inexperienced, but I don't think I'm stupid, I'd appreciate any comments or critiques on those ideas, and I will consider them all.
At the end of the day I will always use my own judgement, but please don't think I am being disrespectful or flippant.

Not in the least, and I for one don't think you are stupid. I just didn't want you to die on a night passage!

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have both of those jumble duck, I also only draw 1.3 m and can lift the keel. The swssa guide says there is no need to stick with the channel 2 hrs either side of hw if you draw 1.5m or less? Although I have every intention of sticking with it.

That should be OK on a rising tide. There are political issues at the moment which mean that the buoyage can't be relied on. They race Flying Fifteens around the mouth of the estuary, by the way, so obviously a reasonable depth over a reasonable area.

Plus I have checked the bus times to Dumfries and back to Carlisle if I don't like the look of the crossing back on Wednesday.

Good planning, that man. If you decide to leave the boat on this side, contact Andy at Kippford Slipway on 01556 620249 and I expect he'll be able to sort you out a (drying) mooring for while you're away.

 

[rptb1]

when passage planning or on a cruise?
If it's 20knots do you go anyway? 25? What speeds or gusts forecast would you plan on going out fully rigged, going out reefed and where do you say, naa, I'll stay in the pub today and wait till it drops before moving on?

You've had some great advice already, but I'll just add that “when to reef” depends on your boat. I've sailed a Beneteau with a large rig that needed reefing in a F4, a Bavaria that griped in a F3, a Sigma 38 that comfortably carried full sail in F6, etc. etc. If you have excessive heeling or weather helm, griping, broaching, nose-diving — these are all signs that you should have already reefed on a Bermudan rig and you've already made a mistake. Between a F4 and a F5 this is a mistake that'll most likely just make you uncomfortable. Between F6 and F7 you might lose control of your boat.

If you're interested, my video “Against the weather” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpEquddIMI is an account of me going out in a F6 with F7 gusts off the Naze and hearing two mayday calls. The first was from a yacht “couldn't get the sails down”, lost control, grounded and lost their rudder. My suspicion is that they didn't reef early enough. (You don't get to see any of this action on video, sorry.)

You say “going out reefed” but I hope you are comfortable with reefing underway.

For what it's worth, on Tammy Norie, a F5 is where she gets going. F6 is a good day out. F7 is a bit of excitement. That further illustrates how much it depends on boat and rig.

I don't know your experience so apologies if any of this is patronising.

+1 about fatigue, by the way.

 

[BruceDanforth]

For me it depends on the sea state and the point of sail. I am happy to beam reach along in a blow for ages but beating into a strong wind soon gets tiring. Also depends on how good the sails are and the general state of the boat.

 

[PeteCooper]

Steve, I would caution against going out in any more than 15 knots to start with and less than that if possible. As an inexperienced sailor you will find making ground to windward relatively tricky in any more than that and it is a good idea to learn the boat before stretching yourself. As you know I have recently downsized to a similar sized boat to yours, albeit a bit sportier, and for the time being I wont be heading out in more than about 15 knots of wind until I know the boat a bit better.

 

[Blue_mischief]

Don't mean this to sound patronising in any way, but can I say what a useful, civilised thread this is. A sensible question, made with enough information for people to give informed answers. Lots of useful advice given and taken on board by the OP. Absolutely what the forum should always be about.

 

[pmagowan]

Experience counts for a lot when sailing but you have to do it to get it. You even have to be caught out a few times to get it. I have a 28 foot wooden leaky sailboat and over the years I have been caught out in all sorts. Sometimes it gets a bit scary but it is surprising just what a good boat can cope with. The weak link is you (or me), the crew. As others have said fatigue is important, I have learnt that lesson on a number of occasions. Also, the first thing you do when expecting bad conditions is feed the crew and make sure you are well wrapped up for the cold. Put on oilskins first and risk taking them off in a sweat rather than thinking, 'it will be ok' and getting wet. Wet, cold, hungry and tired is a killer. Have safety gear that will keep you on the boat, lifejackets are fine but not falling over is better. I have done many a passage in rough seas strapped to the mainsheet traveller by the tiller.

Also, and you seem to have done this, plan an escape route. Make sure it is down wind. Things feel so much better when they are down wind. You need to be prepared to give up and turn back. In my last cruise I got within a few miles of St Kilda after sailing in heavy swell and rising winds all night. The forcast was for smooth or slight with a favourable wind but it was not to be. As the sun rose and St kilda appeared in the early morning gloom my goal was within my grasp. However, the wind was up to a steady 25 kn gusting over 30 on the nose and the sea state was pretty bad. A quick word to the crew and we turned about and ran before it all the way back to Barra. Over 30 hours continuous sailing and we were pretty tired despite watches but it felt a lot better sitting in the harbour with a whisky and a haggis cooking on the stove. We left the boat in Barra for a week and flew back to collect it when conditions had mellowed.

So, I would say suck it and see. You have good local advice and you have a plan and you seem to be prepared for if problems arise.

 

[johnalison]

There is a great difference between sheltered water and open sea. The most I have set out in was a forecast F8, but that was in the Scheldt, with the wind coming off the land.

In open water, I wouldn't normally set out with more than F5, and that only if it were free. That would be in a 34 footer with my wife and me. Nevertheless, some of our best passages have been in a steady F6 gusting 7, but the risk in setting out in a 6 forecast for us is that it might turn out a bit more. There have been times when it would have been nice to have a 42-footer and laugh at a F7, but the critical factor is usually the strength of the crew.

 

[steve yates]

Thanks guys, this has been very useful, and now academic as the forecast for tue is now f4 rising to f5 gusting 6 for a period in the afternoon before dropping back to f4 gusting 5. I could consider sailing in that but the wednesday is a definite no as its steady f5 gusting 6 most of the afternoon going to f6 gusting 7 on thursday. Don't fancy that for my return leg, and the way its been advancing with every forecast means a reasonable chance of thurs weather coming in earlier and arriving wed afternoon.
So I've bailed on the whole idea and am getting the engine serviced and the old anchor torched off this week instead so she's ready to go when a better forecast appears.

Well, its not really academic, as all the info and advice is still valid for the next time, thank you all.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So I've bailed on the whole idea and am getting the engine serviced and the old anchor torched off this week instead so she's ready to go when a better forecast appears.

Sunday/Monday is looking awful good for it on Windguru at the moment: 11 - 14kt from the south on Sunday, 7 - 12 kt from the north west on Monday. Right up yer chuff both ways, no vulgar work to windward required.

Caveat: Windguru is all over the place. Last night it was predicting 40+ kt gusts on the Clyde at the start of next week but this morning it says 15 kt ...

 

[steve yates]

of course it will be good on sunday, I have to take the rest of my daughters stuff over to her as she is starting newcastle uni then It's only crap when I have time off!

 

[ProDave]

Another thing worth practising is getting the sails down in a blow.

Our preferred method now is heave to which puts the main in the shaddow of the backed jib and we find it easy to drop the sail and the boat is usually stable. Then it's a simple matter to furl the jib.

The alternative, motoring into the wind, requires either a helmsman or the auto tiller to keep it into the wind, and the boat is a lot more bouncy motoring into the wind than when hove to.

Give it a try, not all boats will heave to in a way that takes all the pressure off the main to allow you to drop it.

 

[Seajet]

There is a great difference between sheltered water and open sea. The most I have set out in was a forecast F8, but that was in the Scheldt, with the wind coming off the land.

In open water, I wouldn't normally set out with more than F5, and that only if it were free. That would be in a 34 footer with my wife and me. Nevertheless, some of our best passages have been in a steady F6 gusting 7, but the risk in setting out in a 6 forecast for us is that it might turn out a bit more. There have been times when it would have been nice to have a 42-footer and laugh at a F7, but the critical factor is usually the strength of the crew.

Years ago, when I let myself be pressured by moorings not ready etc, I and my experienced but young chum set off from Chichester heading west for Cowes into a forecast F6; in the Solent we were quite happy with that.

What we actually got was a quickly building F7 with prolonged 20 minute + squalls of F11, it was Easter too so bloody cold.

We got through it OK, but neither of us would choose to do it again for fun !

As Johnalison says, what if it blows up even one more notch than advertised, when it's already forecast to be a lot...

Well done on your decision to fettle instead, I'm frustrated by the end of summer looming too but there'll be other times.

Edit; just thought I'd mention, I said that trip was cold as well as windy; in fact my crew who had rather poor waterproofs developed early stage hypothermia and just shut down, curled up semi-conscious in a sheltered corner of the cockpit, if it had been a longer trip I'd have had to heave to ( didn't have an autohelm then and it would need a good powerful one in those conditions ) and bundle him into the cabin, as it was I decided to press on and get it over with .

So the comments about ' get good waterproofs ' are very true, I always think they're much more important on smaller boats, the equivalent of having a personal wheelhouse...

 

[BruceDanforth]

Another thing worth practising is getting the sails down in a blow.

Our preferred method now is heave to which puts the main in the shaddow of the backed jib and we find it easy to drop the sail and the boat is usually stable. Then it's a simple matter to furl the jib.

The alternative, motoring into the wind, requires either a helmsman or the auto tiller to keep it into the wind, and the boat is a lot more bouncy motoring into the wind than when hove to.

Give it a try, not all boats will heave to in a way that takes all the pressure off the main to allow you to drop it.

You don't need to do that. Just head up a bit and slacken the mainsheet until the sail stalls.