Wind over tide

sighmoon

sighmoon

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Supposing you have a passage to make motoring into a F5, where the tide is expected to run at 2 knots. Do you go with the tide (with the wind against it, making nasty overfalls), or wait until the tide turns against you too, smoothing the sea?

After a nasty wind over tide passage, I think we'd rather go against both next time, and it might be quicker - motoring into the overfalls took more than 2 knots off us.
 
terry.mcneill said:
Given that wind and tide are both going to change over time, and that I dont greatly fancy either of the options you offer us, I'm going to put the kettle on and wait until the combination of wind and tide is more favourable I think!
Click to expand...

+1. However, if the passage just has to be made I suppose it depends on the boat and crew. Strong boat and crew, going with the tide will almost certainly be quicker. More uncomfortable and wetter though !
 
sighmoon said:
Supposing you have a passage to make motoring into a F5, where the tide is expected to run at 2 knots. Do you go with the tide (with the wind against it, making nasty overfalls), or wait until the tide turns against you too, smoothing the sea?

After a nasty wind over tide passage, I think we'd rather go against both next time, and it might be quicker - motoring into the overfalls took more than 2 knots off us.
Click to expand...

With the tide SOG is boat speed plus 2, against is minus 2, so the difference is 4.
Best is usually to be in the early hours of favourable tide, as the sea builds over time.
Depends on how important speed is.
A 4 hour pleasant sail beats 2 hours of wet unpleasantness?
 
Soo many factors...
Is it going to be worse at certain points? What times the tide? Leaving and departure times. Can you dodge out of the worst of the over falls? Go offshore more less tide less lumps?
How long is the passage? Is the wind dead on the nose?
 
A few weeks ago I was bringing my boat down the Cumberland coast from Whitehaven to Piel Island near Barrow. The wind was on the nose about F4 and I was motoring hard with no sail up. Initially I had the tide under me and the wind over tide situation was raising short steep waves each of which sharply checked the boat's motion as she banged into it. My speed over the ground was about 3.5 knots. When slack water arrived the waves quickly diminished, the boat steadied and the SOG increased to 6 knots. When the tide strengthened and became contrary to my course the SOG fell to 4.5 knots. (1.5 knots of North going tide).

So, in answer to the OP's question: yes it can be quicker to go against both wind & tide rather than punch into the seas raised by wind against tide.
 
I rarely motor into wind over tide chop on a passage now. Watching the speed drop to 3 knots when slamming into a trough then slowly creeping up before dropping back is utterly depressing.

Even with the added distance it's usually quicker sailing up wind and the motion of the boat is much, much better.

I'd imagine a flatter sea would cancel out the negative tide to some extent.
 
If I have to, I generally prefer to motor-sail, if sailing alone is not going to work. By doing this, I can make about 25degrees to the true wind and progress is faster than under sail.

I do, however get confused when people say "wind over tide", which to me would be the opposite of "wind against tide". I think that this use of the idiom has crept in during recent years.
 
johnalison said:
If I have to, I generally prefer to motor-sail, if sailing alone is not going to work. By doing this, I can make about 25degrees to the true wind and progress is faster than under sail.

I do, however get confused when people say "wind over tide", which to me would be the opposite of "wind against tide". I think that this use of the idiom has crept in during recent years.
Click to expand...
Agree completely.... on both points!
 
onesea said:
Soo many factors...
Is it going to be worse at certain points? What times the tide? Leaving and departure times. Can you dodge out of the worst of the over falls? Go offshore more less tide less lumps?
How long is the passage? Is the wind dead on the nose?
Click to expand...

And tide is rarely constant over the whole track. Often worth taking foul tide in the bays to get slack or favourable tide at the headlands.
 
Also makes a difference whether it is springs or neaps. I can think of several places where we would not dream of motoring into wind over tide on big springs.

As others have said, we will do everything we can rather than motor into the wind these days (been there, got the T shirt) including staying extra unplanned nights in anchorages or changing destination. A huge benefit of sailing in Scotland is that there are just so many places in so many different directions to go to. It is so frustrating getting battered and passing boats that are going the 'right' way and having a great sail. Even with wind over tide running before the wind is usually not too bad.

To answer the original question, there are too many variables to give a hard and fast answer.
 
sighmoon said:
Supposing you have a passage to make motoring into a F5, where the tide is expected to run at 2 knots. Do you go with the tide (with the wind against it, making nasty overfalls), or wait until the tide turns against you too, smoothing the sea?
Click to expand...

The OP did specify that the passage was to be motoring. Also in the instance I quoted I wanted to stay fairly close to the Cumbrian shore for the inherent interest in observing it and looking at the Lake District mountains in the distance. I didn't want to tack out to sea, so I too was motoring.
 
Last edited:
Passage in question was Kinlochbervie from Sango bay. I doubt we'll find ourselves that way for a few years, so I was just wondering what others would do in general.

lw395 said:
With the tide SOG is boat speed plus 2, against is minus 2, so the difference is 4.
Click to expand...

Ah, but it's not necessarily, because:
JimC said:
A few weeks ago I was bringing my boat down the Cumberland coast from Whitehaven to Piel Island near Barrow. The wind was on the nose about F4 and I was motoring hard with no sail up. Initially I had the tide under me and the wind over tide situation was raising short steep waves each of which sharply checked the boat's motion as she banged into it. My speed over the ground was about 3.5 knots. When slack water arrived the waves quickly diminished, the boat steadied and the SOG increased to 6 knots. When the tide strengthened and became contrary to my course the SOG fell to 4.5 knots. (1.5 knots of North going tide).

So, in answer to the OP's question: yes it can be quicker to go against both wind & tide rather than punch into the seas raised by wind against tide.
Click to expand...

xyachtdave said:
I rarely motor into wind over tide chop on a passage now. Watching the speed drop to 3 knots when slamming into a trough then slowly creeping up before dropping back is utterly depressing.

Even with the added distance it's usually quicker sailing up wind and the motion of the boat is much, much better.
Click to expand...

I agree, but in this particular instance, we had rig problems.
 
terry.mcneill said:
Given that wind and tide are both going to change over time, and that I dont greatly fancy either of the options you offer us, I'm going to put the kettle on and wait until the combination of wind and tide is more favourable I think!
Click to expand...

I.e. NEAPS!!! Totally agree - even if it takes a week. Viz attempting to round Portland Bill during the Beasterlies.
 
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