Wind instrumentation

Hurricane

Hurricane

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I never specified wind input when I ordered JW.

Its now becoming clear to me that a high wind alarn at night might be comforting when at anchor.

So, I've given the matter considerable thought and I have a question in my mind - it would be interesting to hear what others think.

All wind instruments on the market have displays like this

getresource.axd


This type of instrument gives apparent and true wind but relative to the boat. Now thats fine for saily boats but completely meaningless for us. OK I know that it is better than nothing but in this day and age we should be able to have a display like this

getresource.axd


From my point of view, I dont have any space available on either helm position without making some considerable modifications. But my thought is that the wind instrument should be more like a piece of furniture - in the same way as the Barometer and Clocks etc. And then installed in the saloon so that a single glance could tell if the wind has changed or not.

All the systems that I've seen interface with the ship's nav systems and provide apparent / true wind on all the instruments whilst the boat is under way. The plotters can even plot the wind vectors etc. But my point is when the boat is static - particularly when she is at anchor but also in a marina. It is here that you want to know instantly the direction of the wind.

I had a long chat with a helpful guy at Raymarine this morning and he came up with a few suggestions but what I really want is a bit of furniture that displays the wind and then secondly outputs it to the nav systems.

I have an idea for the alarm. I'm thinking of "bolting on" a Raymarine Wireless Smart Pilot which can set and repeat all the system alarms - wind would just be another alarm. Actually, I think it would probably be the most important alarm to set - after all its wind that often causes the problem.

Any thoughts - I might have the whole concept wrong though.
 
Have you looked at the tacktick wind instruments?, I fitted one a few months ago, it has a unit on the mast which is wireless (solar powered) and a display very similar to the raymarine type, not sure about alarms or interfacing but think it was nmea
 
Posting this to give some food for though. I have an EchoPilot bronze wind instrument, which has an NMEA ultrasonic transducer at the mast head. An Actisense multiplexor allows the NMEA from the chart-plotter to be mixed in to provide true wind speed. In addition, the NMEA output from the NASA compass allows me to display true wind direction on a Garmin multi-function display:

instruments.jpg


The EchopPilot wind instrument also doubles up as a GPS repeater. The only downside is the display, which is not as bright as the Garmin.
 
I didn't spec wind stuff on previous boat and regretted it, sp made sure to spec it on the current boat.

I'm confused by your concern it will not show true direction. I might be wrong but I thought it did do this, so long as the nav system is on so the device can subtract the boat's heading (from the fluxgate) from the apparent wind direction, to display the true direction? Or perhaps not - perhaps it only subtracts COG? In any case, at anchor you always know the true wind direction just by looking at the ship's compass, because the boat lies to the wind (in the Med, in the absence of tide), so true speed is all you really want to know

As for displays, you could have the ST60 display in the saloon and just use your G series screens to show wind data at the helms. Or you could ditch your ST60s throughout the boat and install ST70, which have a wind "page" that is quite customisable
 
jfm said:
I didn't spec wind stuff on previous boat and regretted it, sp made sure to spec it on the current boat.

I'm confused by your concern it will not show true direction. I might be wrong but I thought it did do this, so long as the nav system is on so the device can subtract the boat's heading (from the fluxgate) from the apparent wind direction, to display the true direction? Or perhaps not - perhaps it only subtracts COG? In any case, at anchor you always know the true wind direction just by looking at the ship's compass, because the boat lies to the wind (in the Med, in the absence of tide), so true speed is all you really want to know

As for displays, you could have the ST60 display in the saloon and just use your G series screens to show wind data at the helms. Or you could ditch your ST60s throughout the boat and install ST70, which have a wind "page" that is quite customisable
Click to expand...


Yes - I agree that true wind direction can be obtained from the nav system - in my case, I dont want to run up my G series equipment just for alarms. The instruments are on a separate supply to the G Series kit so I can keep the power consumption down and only run the instruments at anchor.

My question was that there doesnt seem to be an instrument that shows a plain compass rose with true wind direction in a single instrument. The second instrument in my post is Raymarine's "Club House" system which does exactly what I'm looking for ...... but only to a fixed wind transducer - doesnt work on a boat rotating round an anchor and then doesnt output on Seatalk either - shame.

Actually, you hit on one solution that I discussed with the Raymarine guy this morning - the ST70. In fact, I dont have to ditch the old ST60s either - the ST70 instrument has the old Seatalk interface as well as the new Seatalk ng and there is a pod which connects them to the actual wind transducer. I'm still not sure that the ST70 looks right though. A bit electronic. But I do have a question - does the ST70 have a compas rose display like the second instrument in my first post? There is another advantage to using the ST70 - I believe that it incorporates loads of different alarms.

In any event, I will probably arrange for the ships PC to have the data as well - my PC is very low power and runs all the time that we are on the boat - and alarms could be incorporated on the PC as well.

Still looking for a better solution.

So the question for those of you who are confused.

I'm looking for an instrument that shows the actual true wind angle whatever the position of the boat - not a true wind direction relative to the boat's heading. And then I'd also like it to look like a nice piece of furniture - i.e. an old style analogue display - the clubhouse instrument is almost there (in looks)
 
I love your gadget posting Mike, but it appears to me that you just don't trust your anchor or maybe you want to interface it to the 'logging event' voice therapist. If she starts off in the night, it'll only cause panic!

If the wind is likely to shift JW during the night, there is no way that your 'XO' will allow you to be out there anyway. ;)

All you need is a few more metres of chain out as Princess have already selected the best anchor money can buy.

I totally trust my anchor up to F4 and nearly always sleep through. If I thought the wind could increase that much I wouldn't be there either. I agree that the wind is the only factor for concern as there are no tides out there. Over here, especially in bays and some rivers and harbours, the turn of the tide is far more likely to trip the anchor but then of course it will reset on the stronger of the two forces, wind or tide.

You are at greater risk of another boat hitting you by dragging or turning on the wind in a crowded anchorage. I bet you'll be looking for all-round parking proximeter sensors next. ;)

That's why the anchor alarm is silent on the Ratmarine RC400! :cool:

The more electronic gadgets you fit, the greater chance of falling into a technology trap. It's a pretty weak excuse to an insurance company on a claim form that my, "anchor alarm didn't go off." Don't forget 'seamanship', it's worked for years. As skipper, you are responsible for a watch to be maintained should you deem it necessary.


Also, imho, the best analogue true and apparent wind indicator that looks more like furniture is ..........





































A FLAG. :D


Just kidding, but please keep us posted on which way you go. I'm sure it'll be 'special'.
 
RogerRat said:
or maybe you want to interface it to the 'logging event' voice therapist. If she starts off in the night, it'll only cause panic!
Click to expand...

:):):)

Thanks Roger - I'll train the "logging event" voice therapist to say it in a much more gentle way.
Something like softly saying "Darling would you like to wake up - I say Darling would you like to wake up"
and then "?UCKIN WAKE UP THE BOAT IS ABOUT TO SMASH UP ON THE ROCKS".

Do you think that would work?
 
Hurricane said:
:):):)

Thanks Roger - I'll train the "logging event" voice therapist to say it in a much more gentle way.
Something like softly saying "Darling would you like to wake up - I say Darling would you like to wake up"
and then "?UCKIN WAKE UP THE BOAT IS ABOUT TO SMASH UP ON THE ROCKS".

Do you think that would work?
Click to expand...

:D:D:D

I doubt the "XO" would have let you sleep through the first two alarms, so you'll not need the third! ;)
 
Hurricane said:
Yes - I agree that true wind direction can be obtained from the nav system - in my case, I dont want to run up my G series equipment just for alarms. The instruments are on a separate supply to the G Series kit so I can keep the power consumption down and only run the instruments at anchor.

My question was that there doesnt seem to be an instrument that shows a plain compass rose with true wind direction in a single instrument. The second instrument in my post is Raymarine's "Club House" system which does exactly what I'm looking for ...... but only to a fixed wind transducer - doesnt work on a boat rotating round an anchor and then doesnt output on Seatalk either - shame.

Actually, you hit on one solution that I discussed with the Raymarine guy this morning - the ST70. In fact, I dont have to ditch the old ST60s either - the ST70 instrument has the old Seatalk interface as well as the new Seatalk ng and there is a pod which connects them to the actual wind transducer. I'm still not sure that the ST70 looks right though. A bit electronic. But I do have a question - does the ST70 have a compas rose display like the second instrument in my first post? There is another advantage to using the ST70 - I believe that it incorporates loads of different alarms.

In any event, I will probably arrange for the ships PC to have the data as well - my PC is very low power and runs all the time that we are on the boat - and alarms could be incorporated on the PC as well.

Still looking for a better solution.

So the question for those of you who are confused.

I'm looking for an instrument that shows the actual true wind angle whatever the position of the boat - not a true wind direction relative to the boat's heading. And then I'd also like it to look like a nice piece of furniture - i.e. an old style analogue display - the clubhouse instrument is almost there (in looks)
Click to expand...


Hmmm. Whatever system you use you need power to the fluxgate, and prob the a/pilot control head, in order to get a HDG output onto NMEA or seatalk. So to keep power low, you need separate pwr supply to those components. Or a dedicated separate fluxgate (which must be cheap and small, as you have them in car rear-view mirrors these days) that can speak a language that can be converted to NMEA by your PC or otherwise integrated.

Another alternative would be to get one of those GPS compasses, which is the way to go and we'll all have them in a few years, then you'd only need power to that (tiny power) and the wind instrument?

As for display yes the ST70 has a very configurable display for wind, so many options I can't even remember them. Definitely has a nice compass rose. Also a graph showing historic over 6 hours or something. I'm really pleased with the ST70 (I have 6, 2 on lower helm and 4 upper) except for 2 things: (a) they need to be dimmed individually which is a sodding nuisance when you want to dim them in stages as evening turns to night - but Raymarine promise a software fix to this soon, which can be user installed, and (b) they are not bright enough on sunny days on the flybridge, not as bright as E and G series screens for example. But that wont matter in your saloon. And yes they have lots of alarms
 
jfm said:
Hmmm. Whatever system you use you need power to the fluxgate, and prob the a/pilot control head, in order to get a HDG output onto NMEA or seatalk. So to keep power low, you need separate pwr supply to those components. Or a dedicated separate fluxgate (which must be cheap and small, as you have them in car rear-view mirrors these days) that can speak a language that can be converted to NMEA by your PC or otherwise integrated.

Another alternative would be to get one of those GPS compasses, which is the way to go and we'll all have them in a few years, then you'd only need power to that (tiny power) and the wind instrument?

As for display yes the ST70 has a very configurable display for wind, so many options I can't even remember them. Definitely has a nice compass rose. Also a graph showing historic over 6 hours or something. I'm really pleased with the ST70 (I have 6, 2 on lower helm and 4 upper) except for 2 things: (a) they need to be dimmed individually which is a sodding nuisance when you want to dim them in stages as evening turns to night - but Raymarine promise a software fix to this soon, which can be user installed, and (b) they are not bright enough on sunny days on the flybridge, not as bright as E and G series screens for example. But that wont matter in your saloon. And yes they have lots of alarms
Click to expand...

Thanks

I'm prety sure that my course computer powers up with all the instruments - I think its on the old Seatalk bus anyway which would make sense that it powers up at the same time - my Raymarine GPS mushroom definately powers up with the instruments.

However, I've bee looking at this as well http://airmartechnology.com/airmar2005/ex20/RMProducts/ElectCat.asp?ProdID=250&Page=Marine
It's actually a more expensive version of the device that RestLessL came up with (thanks for that RestLessL - I didnt know Echopilot were offering it).
The interesting thing is that it is a sensor with outputs for wind, GPS, temp, heading and a form of tilt compensation. All outputting NMEA sentences so it could be the only thing thats needed to be powered up. They also have free PC software but with no alarms as yet.

Still havent found the idea that I like the most.

For those interested, my logic is this.

Imagine that you are sitting at anchor (or in the marina come to that) and you want to see quickly what the wind is doing. It may be that as a result of a previous weather forecast you are expecting a change in wind direction. What you need to see fro example is the wind is North East - you dont want to know that it is on the bow and that the boat is pointing North East. If you were on shore in a marina office for example you would expect to see a wind instrument with a compass rose indicating the direction of the wind. I would like to see the same on the boat. It isnt rocket science.

Most of the instruments that I've seen are geared up around sailing boats and thats absolutely correct for them - they like to know when to tack and the autopilot's can be used more effectively if they sail to the wind etc - but motorboats dont need the same concepts.

Still looking - its the instrument that I'm really interested in.
 
That Airmar thing is a super bit pf kit Hurric, and with a pair of ST70s would be perfect Hurric. One ST70 could show a graph of wind speed over say the last 12 hrs, and the 'page' button could toggle thru last 12 hrs, last 3 hrs, whatever. The other ST70 could show compass rose with true wind speed and direction, and the 'page' button programmed to toggle thru the other outputs from the airmar. Or you could have one ST70 and toggle between compass rose and graph, using the 'page' button

Circuit-wise, I think you'd need the airmar transducer, a NMEA-to-Seatalk bridge, and an old ST60 instrument (hidden away) to serve as the Seatalk-ST70 bridge, and a few raymarine cables. You wouldnt need raymarine's "pods"

Incidentally I have loads of ST 70 cables left over from my install, all in sealed bags. I'll make a post sometime listing them. Happy to sell for 1/2 of best internet price, postage free, to anyone doing a ST70 install. The Raymarine prices for these things are scary, and you have to use Raym cables; you can't use ordinary wire as you could with Seatalk 1...
 
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jfm said:
That Airmar thing is a super bit pf kit Hurric, and with a pair of ST70s would be perfect Hurric. One ST70 could show a graph of wind speed over say the last 12 hrs, and the 'page' button could toggle thru last 12 hrs, last 3 hrs, whatever. The other ST70 could show compass rose with true wind speed and direction, and the 'page' button programmed to toggle thru the other outputs from the airmar. Or you could have one ST70 and toggle between compass rose and graph, using the 'page' button

Circuit-wise, I think you'd need the airmar transducer, a NMEA-to-Seatalk bridge, and an old ST60 instrument (hidden away) to serve as the Seatalk-ST70 bridge, and a few raymarine cables. You wouldnt need raymarine's "pods"

Incidentally I have loads of ST 70 cables left over from my install, all in sealed bags. I'll make a post sometime listing them. Happy to sell for 1/2 of best internet price, postage free, to anyone doing a ST70 install. The Raymarine prices for these things are scary, and you have to use Raym cables; you can't use ordinary wire as you could with Seatalk 1...
Click to expand...


Yes - that does seem to be a good solution - I'm not sure that the old ST60 is necessary though. I believe that the ST70 can take the old Seatalk data so a NMEA to Seatalk bridge is all that is required. And then a cable to the existing ST60 Seatalk bus which in turn would pass wind info onto the G Series when under way. I'd also link the output to the PC of course - but you wouldnt expect anything else - would you?

BTW how do you connect an audible alarm to the Seatalk bus?
 
Hurricane said:
Yes - that does seem to be a good solution - I'm not sure that the old ST60 is necessary though. I believe that the ST70 can take the old Seatalk data so a NMEA to Seatalk bridge is all that is required. And then a cable to the existing ST60 Seatalk bus which in turn would pass wind info onto the G Series when under way. I'd also link the output to the PC of course - but you wouldnt expect anything else - would you?

BTW how do you connect an audible alarm to the Seatalk bus?
Click to expand...

I thought, but am happy to be corrected, that the St70 could only be connected to ST1 network via an ST60, but whichever answer is correct it's no big deal to install.

I dont know about alarms - I only use the alarms built into my E120s (which are connected to the ST70 bus and the Seatalk 1 bus, on my boat. I've never looked for a high wind alarm on the ST70s but will try to check this coming weekend
 
jfm said:
I thought, but am happy to be corrected, that the St70 could only be connected to ST1 network via an ST60, but whichever answer is correct it's no big deal to install.

I dont know about alarms - I only use the alarms built into my E120s (which are connected to the ST70 bus and the Seatalk 1 bus, on my boat. I've never looked for a high wind alarm on the ST70s but will try to check this coming weekend
Click to expand...

Thanks jfm - you might be correct about the ST70/ST60 interface - I might not have asked the correct question to Raymarine.

If you get the time to have a more detailed look at your ST70s, I'd be interested. The manual doesnt have all the different display screens - I expect because there are too many. I like the idea of the wind history though and it would be good to see if there is a compass dispolay of wind.
 
Hurricane said:
:):):)

Thanks Roger - I'll train the "logging event" voice therapist to say it in a much more gentle way.
Something like softly saying "Darling would you like to wake up - I say Darling would you like to wake up"
and then "?UCKIN WAKE UP THE BOAT IS ABOUT TO SMASH UP ON THE ROCKS".

Do you think that would work?
Click to expand...

Now you're torkin'

Last statement should be, "Wake the Phuk up!" though, emphasis being on 'wake' as in:

"Shut the Phuk up" if you remember when trying to silence the ol' 'loggin' event! :)

I know you're enjoying this little project coz you can but I still think you and JFM are waaaay over the top on this one. ;)

Still, I can't wait to here about the ST70 next week. :o
 
Bringing this back to top because I checked the st70s at weekend. Hurric they do everything you want and more besides

Alarms can be set for more things than I remember, wind speed, direction, wind angle to boat, all settable as true or apparent and all with high or low.

Display has 6 windows, 3x2 array, individually configurable and combinable. So you could have 6 data boxes. Or combine 4 windows into a single pane and show a compass rose plus 2 data boxes (second picture below). The rose can be true or apparent. The possibilities are too many to remember or list. Angles, direction, max speed recorded ince last rest, speed in knots or beaufort, everything true or apparent, etc etc. The set up menu is fantastic, 100% intuitive, no manual needed

Second pic below shows it in menu mode setting one of the alarms.

So it will do all you asked for, and more besides. But imho the display isn't bright enough so just on that point I'm a bit disappointed with them on my flybridge on a med sunny day. And they aren't cheap by the time you've bought all the connectors!

IMG_0562.jpg

IMG_0558.jpg
 
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Thanks jfm

Thats really helpful

I'm essentially down to considering two options.

The safer one
JW has 4 ST60+ instruments - a graphic display and tridata as a repeater on the flybridge (I think the FB Tridata is a repeater which cant be used as a master) - and the main helm has seperate depth and speed instruments (these are both masters)
So plan 1 is to remove the two lower helm ST60s and replace them with a single (master) ST60 Tridata.
This would leave a hole in the main helm dash to fit a ST60+ wind instrument.
I would then just fit the usual cup and vane annemoter on the radar arch.
I think this would work and would probably be the professionally recommended route.

My second option is more unconventional
Fit a Airmar, all singing, all dancing, solid state unit on the radar arch.
Connect its NMEA output to JW's on board PC.
Then just using software I could get all the alarms (and more) with the exception of depth.
The PC is fed throughout the boat so alarms could be heard wherever is needed.
A particular advantage of this system is that very little needs to be powered up - all the important information comes from one dedicated sensor.
The sensor also provides a crude weather station which can (for example) run a trace history on barometric pressure.
As an addition to this system, an interface (using a NMEA bridge) could be added to the exitsing ST60 old style Seatalk bus. This interface could provide the nav systems with wind and the PC systems with depth.
A further addition could be one of jfm's ST70 displays with its vast range of alarms.

At the moment I dont know which way to go.

Safe and conventional or different?
 
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