Will the marine world follow the 4x4 trend?

Re: \"There is no such thing as \"society\"?

I'll do it if you want; as a smoking, 4x4 driving, gun owning, hunt subscribing, public school educated middle-aged white rich git fat cat company director I am accustomed to being a social outcast /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Steve
 
RR Vogue 4.6 ......

Clarkson did one on Top-Gear .... drove all day in London and outskirts .... M4 etc. He filled tank at start and refilled at end. He stood by the RR and had calculator in hand ... Live on program he showed - 9+ mpg average over the day.

I have a pal who runs a 4.6HSE .... he gets about 10 - 11mpg if lucky .... 15 - 16 on a run. But he uses it seriously to go hunting as well as pick-ups of Clients at airport ....

I am not quoting out of the blue - they are figures actually seen. The HSE was offered to me ... I stepped back smartly !!

I assume you may have the eco-filter built into yours ??
 
Winter specs .....

On of the biggest problems with Winter in places like UK .... no-one has looked at real tyres and needs that differ winter - summer. A 2wd car if FWD with correct tyres will outperform a 4wd car with average brit-sh*t tyres. Fact.

How do I know ? Just look at our winters over here ... not your pansy UK style ... most people over here plump for FWD cars unless boy-racers and then they risk life and limb with german auction BMW's. Over here we have to change tyres winter / summer. Some as I have tried go for M&S tyres ... YUK !! a joke as no tyre will cover both situations. Yes we have option to stud our tyres as well - which gives slow speed /start advantage - but even without - proper snow tyres even on ice will not smack you wall .....

People have this strange idea that 4wd will grip so much better on snow / ice ... bunkum actaully - as most drivers do not know how to really drive 4wd ... they hope the 4wd will magically improve their lot ..... The proof of the pudding is the AWD system as already stated - which normally does not transfer much to rear wheels ... it acts more like a FWD vehicle. But people stonk along thinking ..... AWD - I'm safer !!

The car is not the problem really - it is matching use, conditions and machine to best suit. A situation that rarely gets done.
 
Re: RR Vogue 4.6 ......

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you may have the eco-filter built into yours ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno, it's just a car! 16.4 is what I get from the current 4.4 V8 petrol, 18.2 is the 4.0 V8 (average over 60K miles) - last revision of the 4.0 engine which was seriously improved by BMW. Both include towing and off-road mileage. I guess driving in London, stop-start all day would seriously degrade the figures, but then it's not something I would do, I haven't got the patience.

Steve
 
Re: Winter specs .....

[ QUOTE ]
A 2wd car if FWD with correct tyres will outperform a 4wd car with average brit-sh*t tyres. Fact.


[/ QUOTE ] I must have been dead lucky. I towed several FWD cars up this hill in my Rav4 with brit sh*t tyres on it last winter.
The hill is steeper than it looks, about 1 in 8 (12%)

SnowBirthwaite.jpg
 
Re: Winter specs .....

Nigel

This is so very true.

I was born in the country grew up in the country, live in the country. 36 years ago (ish) when I passed my test on Dec 18th I lived in South Wales, up a mountain. My first 'solo' drive in my own car was on snow. You quickly had to learn how to drive in those conditions. These days unless right up north (land of Mr Jock) there is little exposure to snow in the UK.

I remember, about ten years ago, in Jan, we left home about 18.00 hrs from near Haywards Heath to drive to Doncaster. When we left home it was snowing heavily. When we got to M11 it was near white out. By the time we got to Grantham on the A1, no road was visible, only snow. You could pick out the road OK though as is was marked with cars abandonded or in the ditch, some of those 4 x 4!

It took many hours but we got to Dony. I was driving a Citreon BX DTI. I owe a lot to the skill learned all those years ago in Wales as a lad.
 
Re: Winter specs .....

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A 2wd car if FWD with correct tyres will outperform a 4wd car with average brit-sh*t tyres.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. But then no point running road profile tyres at all if you use the car off road regularly.

[ QUOTE ]
proper snow tyres even on ice will not smack you wall .....

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Driveway is slick smooth old tarmac with sod all grip, 25% approach angle and 5% - 10% list across - I have slid (but not quite into the wall) crawling at idle in RR bottom gear low ratio on good rubber. But around us (side of valley high in Pennines) plenty of people don't use their driveways if there's the slightest hint of snow, they leave their cars on the road because it's flatter. Some days I cannot walk up the driveway because it's too slippery. It's not just the conditions, it's also the topography - and because the drive is quite narrow some visitors wont attempt it even when dry.

Cheers,

Steve
 
LS ... I assume your tyres ...

Are not simply Brit Road tyres ... that is what I'm aiming at. Many 4x4's are fitted with on-road tyres - cause they are quieter and often cheaper. Even my Suzuki in UK has to have commercial tyres if 4x4 use envisaged - then price goes loopy !! But fit what are termed rain tyres over here - strictly for summer use ... then price goes down, noise reduces and mileage per tyre goes up.
You also probably don't have those silly poser Fat Boy tyres which are only good for posing or sand.

IF the fwd cars you towed had good winter tyres on as we have here - you probably would have found a difference ... because a) they cut into the snow, b) tread pattern opens up with bite and tends to un-clog, c) are narrower foot-print than summers even though walls etc. are same.

Trouble is you don't get proper winter tyres except by order in UK - plenty of useless M&S ... (for those who haven't come across the term M&S ... it stands for Mud & Snow). Also take note that winter tyres have different temp. gradient to the compound used in construction ....

Not arguing with your towing cars ... nice gesture and socially responsible ... I also tow others when they are stuck ... but I am highlighting the inadequacy of most tyres / set-ups in UK.

My Suzuki which stands idle now (SORN) has tyres fitted that would pull trees out ... but that's basically because I've been involved with LR's, trucks, Farms and winters out here ....
 
You need my mates needle gun !

He has a special tool used to break up surfaces in farmyards ... when concrete etc. gets worn down ... he sends in the boys with this walk along gun system and compressor. It roughs up surface ...

But you see - you admit that your RR has slid .. so what chance anything really ... ?
 
Re: Winter specs .....

[ QUOTE ]

Driveway is slick smooth old tarmac with sod all grip, 25% approach angle and 5% - 10% list across - I have slid (but not quite into the wall) crawling at idle in RR bottom gear low ratio on good rubber. But around us (side of valley high in Pennines) plenty of people don't use their driveways if there's the slightest hint of snow, they leave their cars on the road because it's flatter. Some days I cannot walk up the driveway because it's too slippery. It's not just the conditions, it's also the topography - and because the drive is quite narrow some visitors wont attempt it even when dry.


[/ QUOTE ]
Several years ago I did drive a Landrover (109 S3) in icy conditions. It was set up with proper off-road tyres in even in 4WD mode it didn't really grip any better than a FWD vehicle.
 
Re: Winter specs .....

I think the idea is you get off the smooth tarmac onto a verge or summat to get a bit more grip .... you can do that in a landy especially if you don't mind the odd scratch & dint bashing through hedges....
 
Compacted snow / ice ....

General tyres create a water layer between tyre and surface ... M&S aslo have this problem to a lesser degree ... its the same principle as a skater on ice. Anyone not believe me - get a car to drive over ice and check the ice immediately after before it refreezes ...
Ice Tyres without studs are designed to open slots to take away that film and let tyre hit ice ... or compacted snow. Should you go of the snow or ice - then the block treading will bite into the mud / ground ......
Normal tyres (summer grade) do neither. That is why it is illegal to drive on summer tyres here after Nov. 1 ... (or date set depending on weather) It is also illegal to drive on winters in summer here ... after April 1 - because in rain they are liable to slide / aquaplane easier ... now that's a surprise after the winter water quote - but true. They cannot handle large amounts of water ... they also wear out very quickly due to the different compound.
 
Re: You need my mates needle gun !

[ QUOTE ]
so what chance anything really ... ?

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None at all, it was a very safe offer /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Steve
 
Re: Winter specs .....

[ QUOTE ]
Several years ago I did drive a Landrover (109 S3) in icy conditions.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I used to have a SWB S3 - had to sell it because SWMBO couldn't manage it without power steering /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif . No comparison at all with a modern 4WD fitted with Electronic Traction Control, ABS & Dynamic Stability Control, the difference is simply amazing.

On ETC, I took a Maserati Quattroporte out for a test drive a few weeks ago, on local roads which I know well. Despite superb chassis and handling it couldn't maintain the speeds I would expect in the RR, great engine but the traction control alarm was perpetually going off. OK the roads around here "undulate" /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif , but I would have expected such a class act to handle them better than it did. Audi quattro's do well here too.

Steve
 
Re: Compacted snow / ice ....

I'm confused. I thought winter tyres were divided into studded (for peeps who live in the Alps above the usual snowline) or non-studded winter tyres which are usually branded "M+S", have a silica content that makes the rubber more flexible at lower temperatures and "sipes" or small cuts in the tread to "grip the ice" - that's all you seem to get in UK/France anyway. What's the other sort?
 
Re: Compacted snow / ice ....

Still all academic and just comes down to too many people.

Sterilise the world!

Need an answer, Jem's here.
 
Re: Winter specs .....

Call that snow?! If it's not upto yer knees its not worth getting excited about....

Img_1671Medium.jpg


This was the day after moving into our house here in Newfoundland. 50cm of snow. Jeep has A/T tyres not snow tyres. If you look closely you'll see a figure in orange shovelling. Thats SWMBO shovelling out her 2wd car (which has snowtyres.) On Ice/compressed snow her car would go up hills that the jeep needs 4x4 for!
 
Re: \"There is no such thing as \"society\"?

I drive to work - in two very different places, each week. The UK railway system leaves me with no real alternative.

32,000 miles at 47 mpg is 688 gallons per year

10,000 miles at 17 miles per gallon (Craggy Steve's figures for his RR Vogue) is 588 gallons a year.

10,000 miles per year at 9 miles per gallon (Jeremy Clarkson's figures for urban cycle in an RR) is 1,111 gallons a year.

I was not sitting in judgement; I was observing a social trend. Smoking at work was perfectly OK, just a few years ago - now it is not.
 
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