Will the joystick replace the wheel?

[Ships_Cat]

The ones I have come across you can adjust both the sensitivity and response rate of, so it's not as if an unexpected jiggle is going to send the boat off in a new direction.

The best arrangement, in my view, is when they are attached to the armrest of the helm seat beside where the hand is if naturally rested on the armrest (saying that recognising that many smallish pleasure boats don't have armrests). Brace with the other arm on arm rest or to crash bar on dash.

But again, not inferring appropriate on any very small fast MoBo (which to me means under 35 foot or so) and also because the environment inside them is more likely to be damp. But have to keep in mind that a largish boat can keep speed up in heavier seas than a smaller one so does not naturally follow that there is less motion in a fast boat just because it is bigger - the accelerations are likely to mostly lower though (I have been on large MoBo's doing 35-40 knots in antics where it was impossible to stand without holding on and well braced, but all the while steered by joystick).

I would expect that peeps such a Hamilton Jet in Christchurch, NZ that make water jet power units (including for smaller range fast MoBo's) and electronic controls would have thought these things through and their views would be interesting.

John

 

[Dyflin]

I'm all confused here, I see no pins???!!!??? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Sixpence]

On the mobo forum thread list , where it says 'will joysticks replace the wheel' , look to the left of it

 

[powerskipper]

One thing to think about with joy sticks , is on the big boats you do not get the rolling and dipping motion you do on the smaller light weights boats.
I find the wheel reassuring in so much as I like to have something to hang on to and the wheels response will not be as sensitive as a joy stick. So therefore more forgiving, good when learning.

yes it may come down to the smaller boats but I think the way it could work is to have both systems with a change over control box similar to the EDC we have now.

 

[halcyon]

Like the Sealine one, uses the joy stick for manoeuvring in the marina, as soon as you open a throttle it drops out and normal controls take over. I do not see a lot reason for a joystick for use when at sea or cruising, where you are using one function at a time. While with the manoevering system, we operated the gears, and bow and stern thusters with just the joystick. If we had gone on to next generation throttle and rudders/leg angle could have been incorporated with wander option.

Brian

 

[Lakesailor]

It's in the red circle. It was only a joke. Honest

 

[petehoehill]

I work on commercial ships and have to use hand steering especially on the Whittons, Ouse, and Trent.
Most commercials are fitted with joystick steering in various ways, buttons are fitted on some but tend to be back up and not well liked.
the most common is the space invader type, where you push the stick to one side or the other, the best in my mind is the Knob which you turn and it has its own dial to show how much helm you have selected.

The main disadvantage, is there is no feel to the steering, and you are having to continually look at a rudder indicator to find where it is.
if you have a slow rudder pump god help you, if you suddenly put to much helm the wrong way, as you will have to hold the stick over the other way and wait until the rudder slowly comes back.
most commercials have 2 pump systems, at sea one pump is used and the other is back up, in confined waters both pumps are used to increase the helm speed.
To me you are literally steering by gauges, in other words one eye on the boat, and one eye continually on the rudder indicator.

I am handling other peoples vessels, so I have to weigh up the ships handling characteristics, very quickly.

On my own boat i favour the wheel, with as one other person quotes, 8 turns hard over to hard over.
motorboats are far more manouverable than ships.

As to autopilot, i fully agree with it and engage it wherever possible and safe, once it is set up properly it gives the chance for the skipper captain whatever you want to call it to look araound and assess what is happening without having to worry about the steering, so if you have it use it, but a word of caution always monitor it closely, I have had situations when they glitch and suddenly go hard over.

for you techno's there is another system, widely used by Seasnakes, (snake up rivers and go to sea,), those weird looking coasters with hydraulic jack up wheel houses.
Its called Riverpilot, and works on a rate of turn indicator, rather than a compass, you steer as normal, with a tiller,(like a joystick,but it is moved sideways like a tiller), but when you put it to amidships the automatic takes over, and has sensors checking the rate of turn, and will keep it to zero, so the vessel steers itself in a straight line.
Great on rivers and canals as you get the best of both worlds.
Disadvantage any wind or current will carry your vessel sideways without alterring its heading, so you can find yourself wandering, and it has to be closely monitored, but great for taking river bends as you can set the rate of turn and watch the boat steer itself around a bend.

If you want to be really silly get a twin screw, with bow and stern thruster, and fit a computerised dynamic positioning system.That is really like playing computer games.

On my boat I am staying with the wheel, if I can find one to fit, and get the rudder and hydraulics sorted out.


Remember in close quarters handling, apply the rudder/s first then give it a short kick of power increasing untill it answers, then take it off, know as giving it a kick.

 

[oldgit]

Both the tugs in the picture had a type of joystick controlling both throttle and direction during mid 1970s,of german design with twin Caterpillar engines driving a schottle system.

The tug was used to unload the LASH ship in the picture called the Green Forest.
A slightly smaller version of this ship called the BILDERDYKE vanished with all her crew on an atlantic crossing while on its way to Sheerness,all they ever found was a lifeboat.

As you can see it was big a tug can just been seen under the stern of the ship indicating scale.

 

[Nautical]

I have tried a couple of joystick systems recently and have to say once you get out of the mind set of having a wheel in front of you it does work very well. I would agree that for smaller mobos you have the disadvantage of not having something to hold onto in bad weather so I see the system being more intergrated with the helm seat set up rather than just a stick on a consol in much the same manner as the new Tamar I recently had the good fortune to have a fiddle with.


The joystick is actually on the left (not seen) the track ball is for scrolling through the computer screens.

The Volvo system works really well for berthing manouvres but for open sea it would require more thought much in same vein as above.

One noticable benefit of joystick such as that in the Tamar is that the response rate and ease of effort of controlling the boat in rough weather is better than a wheel as you are not constantly twirling the wheel all the time and therefore less tiring over a longer period at sea.

Personally I think it only a matter of time before the idea of full joystick control will be taken up with more progressive builders and others to follow suit. The leisure marine industry is going through some dramatic changes with new technology and production techiques certainly in Italy and in the US, certainly Joystick offers another opportunity to integrate navigation, engine managemnet and vessel control all together in much the same vein as the aeronautical industry adopted joystick and intergrated management of the aircraft ten years ago. At that time many pilots expressed fears of not having a yoke but within a few years it is now the accepted standard of most new design and build.

 

[Ships_Cat]

...and you are having to continually look at a rudder indicator to find where it is.

I don't understand that - with a joystick with the stick in the central relaxed neutral position the helm is midships.

Perhaps you are talking about the rotary lever type controls?

John

 

[oceanfroggie]

[ QUOTE ]
...and you are having to continually look at a rudder indicator to find where it is.

I don't understand that - with a joystick with the stick in the central relaxed neutral position the helm is midships.

[/ QUOTE ]Not neccessarily. I would suggest with the joystick in the central position your are telling the software that you do not wish to change heading. The software will put the rudder(s) or engine pods where it can best achieve this (eg hovering maneauvers, ferry gliding, mooring alongside accross the tide in a river, etc). In a true flyby wire system, the position of the control is used for command inputs only and bears no relation to functional outputs which the software is supposed to figure out (ie thrusters, IPS movements, etc)

IMHO, I think it's too early to tell if this will catch on long term for small motor leisure craft (ie under 60ft). It adds to the maintenance headache and costs considerably, never mind the 'grab' effect for the skipper in a heavy sea and nullifing effect on sea sickness for the helm (eg 45ft motor in F6). DIY maintenance will be a no go area. I was on an Police boat where water had managed to ingress into one of the main cables from the flybridge engine controls, which allowed the boat to put itself in and out of gear randomly and select 50% forward power on the port engine - scary when it has a mind of its own. I think it's a fad for smaller boats, and builders will want to spend the money in places more likely to generate sales (ie fitout, entertainment systems and internal comfort).

 

[Ships_Cat]

Have you actually tried them on board a small commercial vessel?

All the ones I have come across are proportional control with feedback from rudder, not jog stick "bang-bang" type as I think you are describing.

Taking a waterjet drive as an example where the joystick actually controls forward bucket, reverse bucket as well as nozzle direction for steering so even more dimensions than just steering, then the buckets and nozzle position will be hydraulic cylinder powered under proportional closed loop control with each cylinder's position fed back by integral sender units. The wheel, should there be one, may operate in the same way through the controller rather than direct hydraulic, etc.

The back up joysticks, should there be any may be jog type ie "bang-bang" and it may be those that you are describing. If the boat is normally helmed by a wheel then the only sticks on board may perhaps be jogsticks but would doubt that on a modern quality boat.

John

 

[petehoehill]

Quote:
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...and you are having to continually look at a rudder indicator to find where it is.

I don't understand that - with a joystick with the stick in the central relaxed neutral position the helm is midships.


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You are both right in that you can have a system where the joystick, follows the rudder and it stays there, or you can have it where the joystick, returns the rudder to amidships when centralised.
Both still give the problem of where is the rudder?, and with the one that returns the rudder to amidships when let go, what do you do when you want to put helm on and hold it ?
You have to keep the joystick held in exactly the correct position.
Which can limit your concentration whilst trying to feed your boat in between others in a marina.

As to the other arguements of easier handling in a rough sea, and the bang bang versus proportional control and feedback from the rudder.
That must be somthing you guy's have,and i stand to be corrected, as i have not seen it on commercials, so far.

So I will stick with the wheel and as we are going through a force 6, lean against it and nonchalently, tell everybody about the force 15 I once went through or was that force 16, and how we where upside down most of the time etc etc.

 

[oldharry]

Went aboard several of HMs toys during the Festival of The Sea: Not a Steering wheel in sight - joysticks all round. Asking about it, they said they hardly ever use them anyway except for close quarters manoevering. GPS linked computers do all the rest, even in harbour.