Will the end of Red Diesel Make for Better yachting?

Scaramoosh

Scaramoosh

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I have been an interested spectator on many of the posts about the effect of the end of Red Diesel. Its clear that many inhabitants of this forum feel that the reduction in Motor Boats will increase their enjoyment - less crowding, no idiots with large wash etc (fewer people to tack under the nose of in a restricted channel!!)

However I am not sure that this will be the case because there is one point which has occured to me which I haven't seen aired before:

Lets assume the Gordon Brown does slap the tax on and for the poor old Motor Boater like me prices go from £0.33 to £1.00 or more. Likely outcome a number (question is how many) motorboaters decided to quit.
They put their boats on the market which is (a) flooded with boats and (b) has no demand so they can't sell. What are they going to do?

Well almost all of them are kept in marinas so they will have them lifted out and put on the side, as if you cant afford to run the boat you wont want to pay for a marina moring and the hardstanding is cheaper.

1st Effect: Large amounts of the Hardstanding is permanently filled with MoBos so any Yachtie wanting to have his / her boat lifted is going to find a lack of space.

2nd Effect: The boats will become more and more tatty as many owners who cant sell refuse to spend money on repairing covers etc, so anyone who keeps their boat in a Marina will find the ambience going down hill.

3rd Effect: THIS IS THE KILLER FOR THE RAGGIES - Operating a marina is very much a fixed cost business, it costs almost as much to run if there are no boats in there as if it is full up.

So what do the marina operators do; given that they now have lots of space on their pontoons. Either they put up the prices so that their revenue remains the same which will hurt the vast majority of sailors in the pocket or they have to find ways to reduce their costs. Even if you keep your boat on a swinging mooring I bet you use facilities like the Folly Pontoon when your away for the weekend every now and again, even the real anchoring fanatics must occasionally want for more than another Fray Bentos pie!

Their options are to let the infrastucture rot away and don't replace pontoons etc or in Marinas like Port Solent , Chichester etc where there is a lock which is manned 24 hous per day 365 days per year, they wont always be open. 24 hour security will go away etc.

How would you feel if the wind had eased as the sun went down and you missed the tide on a Sunday evening and so couldn't get back to your berth until say 9.00 am on Monday morning because the Lock Keeper had clocked off?

Mind you you could always drop your sail and motor home if the wind falls below Force 3 / 4 - but then why own a sailing boat? and you might start to worry about the cost of the fuel if you spend lots of time motor sailing.

Still I guess Gordon Brown will be happy with the Yachts replacing some of the lost volume from the MoBos, the price increase will help to ensure that he wont loose out!

I am interested in your views

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The big motor boat ownership has only been growing since the 80's. Before that yachts survived quite nicely.

I see what you are saying, but don't think a lack of MOBO's will drive the watersports in this country into all out recession.

For example, walk into an average chandlers and most of what they sell is for the sailing fraternity, ropes, blocks, charts (more carried on yachts than MOBO normally), small instruments, books mostly directed at sailing and on.

I remember when marinas were wall to wall masts, boat shows were not split into two, you could find the odd motor boats nestled in among the yachts.

And

how come the continent appear able to support a MOBO fraternity and everyone believes we wont. Or is it like the many people now who have 5x earnings mortgages, who have bought beyond their means.

***disclaimer, I don't want red diesel to go away etc.....

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>All New website</A>
 
Not sure about the owners of the flotillas of gleaming white rocket ships in Targa avenue or Phantom 43 Cresent. The Solent. UK.
However the vast majority of red diesel users in less hallowed parts of the kingdom will be carrying on as usual.Any rise in costs,be it insurance or fuel causes irritation but not much more.Most will not allow anything to remove them from being on the water.As for those who protest that it will stop them boating maybe boating has only been an enjoyable but temporary diversion on the way to the golf club./forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

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You can only answer this post with your own experience, I know of three mobo owners who have sold recently because of the fuel issue, all of them could well afford the increase but choose not to be "ripped off". Plus another two who are activley looking to downsize to something below 200hp! but I suspect they will not buy a planeing hull.

AS I dont know very many mobo owners this "for me" is a very significant sample say 80%. If it is representative of the whole population of mobo owners then there will be a huge impact on motorised watersports - in the UK.

Will it improve water sports generaly? who knows - but I do know that these ex Mobo owners are looking for BIG motor sailers Nauticats or Fishers or Dutch tin motor boats with a single engine. but where will all the mobos go?

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I know one mobo owner who has already turned raggy because of the threat of low sale price due to the demise of red diesel (why do I find it so hard to remember how that is spelled?).
I know more who are thinking of the switch.

We'll maybe need a plague pit to bury unwanted lunchboxes in
I wish
In a spanish marina of my intimate knowledge, where diesel costs the same on land and on sea, there is just the same mix of rags and roarers.

Happy Wednesday, all

<hr width=100% size=1>clouty
 
Several makes of big motor boat are built in the UK, Fairline, Broom, Princess to name all I can remember. Many of these are sold abroad, and there are quite a lot of jobs in their construction. It is quite possible that the Treasury will loose more than it gains by stopping red diesel. If it was France being threatened, you can imagine their attitude, (what is the French for s*d *ff?) It wouldn't be difficult for our Government to say the same (in English) except that it seems to me that what ever directive we get from Brussels, our civil servants adjust to far more draconian levels than were ever originally envisaged. To say that motor yachts are still sold on the continent rather begs the question of relative fuel costs.I am sure that somebody who can afford to spend a fortune on abig power boat will ot be unduly upset by the cost of fuel, but that same somebody will also be aware that he can keep and refuel his boat across the Channel much cheaper, and move accordingly. So ur marinas will become a little emptier. Which might cause them to lower costs to attract more boats? Still, overall I think that we will all be losers.

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In my marina, the new gas-guzzling Mobos rarely go out again once the owner's wife finds what they are really like in a Channel force 5 chop. Floating holiday cottages use even less diesel than us raggies (except for the Ebspatcher).

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Well oldgit my temporary diversion had been 20 odd years, was discussing this issue with mates over the weekend, one has already put off his purchase of a mobo and I will certainly consider giving up or praps buy a RIB to be kept on a trailer.

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Dunno, probably not, but it should make for better driving. The teensy weeny bit about the red diesel debate which seems to have escaped everyones attention is that it is all about tax harmonisation across europe. i.e red diesel will no longer be avaialble, but the tax on normal road diesel should be the same as our european cousins - i.e about 1/2 of what we pay. Now call me cynical but I can't see gordon the gekko willingly halving the tax on road diesel, so he will probably be happy with the status quo.

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Nope, not in my understanding; Harmonization sets a minimum level of duty, Members may charge more than that if they wish...

So we get stuffed all ways.

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Stop what you're doing and wait my signal
 
Wrong economics

> Well almost all of them are kept in marinas so they will have them lifted out as the hardstanding is cheaper.

> So what do the marina operators do; given that they now have lots of space on their pontoons. Either they put up the prices so that their revenue remains the same which will hurt the vast majority of sailors in the pocket

In this situation, marina operators will have fee paying MoBos ashore and vacant berths, which they can then let to Raggies at reduced rates because they now have an additional income from the MoBos ashore.

With less MoBos creating noise and great wakes, sailing will be more attractive to raggies, which will increase the number of raggies that will fill the vacant pontoons left by the MoBos - Go for it Gorden

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I've stayed out of this debate and the one on fox hunting. My only observation is that if the picture you paint is accurate then there could be a significant number of marine industry related redundancies. I do hope the dear Prime Minister in Waiting has costed the losses in inland revenue and the cost of unemployment benefits against the gains he feels he will make by imposing the tax

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple>regards
Claymore<font color=purple>
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http://www.whoi.edu/services/facilities/CLAYMORE/
 
You seem to assume that a politician is capable of logical thought - I wish that were true. What is more accurate is that they are driven by political expediency - thus for example a vote on fox hunting rallies the rank and file and allows other more pressing things to be passed without so much notice.

Remember the only honest politician is the one who stays bought!

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Re: Will the end of Red Diesel Make for Better yac

But the marine industry is so small it doesn't even flicker on HMG's radar. The job loss issue is just a complete non-issue. Gordon B announced many more redundancies from the civil service this Spring than will ever be seen from the marine industry.

Further, and as I've said before, this is just not a political issue - the tax yield is tiny, the polictical vote is tiny, the noise made will be tiny. It's a conversation over tea and biscuits at the treasury when red diesel is binned - as it surely will be.

Yes - I'm one of the guys who sold out a Targa 39 and bought a Nauticat 39 - I can do without losing 30% of the value of a boat that nobody wants to buy in two years time.

rob

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I think also, that convenience comfort and speed,are no guartantee of satisfaction and enjoyment.

Simplicity can be a wonderful thing.

Now seems a great time to give sailing a go.



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I think I detect a floor in your logic. If all the MoBo’s are now creating a lack of available ground space and a surfeit of water space, the cost of ground space will go up and water space down (but probably not by much).
No, that’s wrong, the cost of ground space will go up to equal the cost of water space.

PS Folly pontoon is Council owned so will not be subject to Marina pressures.


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I would have thought many MOBOS watching their pennies would be moving their boats to europe.
what they save on moorings and fuel would justify the flights/train journeys for many weekend a year.
And it may be sunny too.

<hr width=100% size=1>A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a Unicorn
 
Phandango, But wouldn't the (so-called) laws of supply and demand mean that marina prices would fall?

And, on a related point, the management at the marina I use give full occupancy as the reason for ignoring any complaints/requests - "we're full so we must be right" is the usual answer to almost anything.

Anyway, can't see any reason for boat owners not paying the full tax - at least not from any environmental or social equality stand point.

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I'm not sure what effect the loss of red diesel will have on marina prices or, indeed, boating costs in general, but you can be pretty sure that the marina operators will vigorously enforce rules banning refueling in berths. Forecourt prices will be way below whatever marinas have to charge.

We may well see a drop in operating speeds and frequency of usage, maybe even a reduction in the numbers of "affordable" new boats sold. I don't think we will see the nation's hards lined with redundant mobos though.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.
 
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