Will a boat value last forever?

[elettra]

I am considering buying my first boat and am attracted by price and quality to boats of about 25 - 30 years old. These cost £30kish but will they hold their value? I want a boat to keep for 5 years or so and would like a residual value. All comments welcomed plse.

 

[moondancer]

I think we need more about your requirements. Filling your profile in will get you treated seriously here. Otherwise you might not get much of a response.

 

[Bav34]

Welcome to The Forum.

Good question. If you look at my profile you will see that I have owned quite a few boats. I have ALWAYS sold them for more than I paid for them but inevitably have improved them along the way i.e. new sails or electronics. Also inflation has to be taken into account.

As an example my first boat was a Leisure 17. I bought it probably 30 ish years ago for £1700. I am sure that a good one will still set you back this sort of money today but obviously inflation has taken it's toll.

Buy a well known marque, pay wisely and I am sure that you will get close to your buying price back. In the meantime you will have had years of pleasure out on the water which sometimes can be priceless. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[oldharry]

Look after it properly and another five years on the life of a 30 year old boat should make little odds to the value. Neglect it and watch the value and saleability plummet.

The true value of a second hand boat is what someone is prepared to pay you for it, regardless of what you or the brokers think it ought to be worth - and the market is flooded with over priced second hand boats with wishful thinking owners.

 

[Topcat47]

Not really. Boats keep their value only if they're well maintained. It's possible to increase the resdual value of an older boat in the short term but it's going to cost and you have to expect to lose money eventually. Centaurs for example have a price range (asking that is) from around £9k to just under £14k (discounting wrecks on e-bay). I doubt if there's a Centaur on the market that'll fetch more than £14k, however good it is.

At £30k you should be able to find a good selection of excellent 32 footers like the Nicholson and the Saddler, equipped to a high standards but I believe that Nics have hit a ceiling around £25k, Saddlers slightly higher. Contessas also can be had for these sorts of prices. As to holding their prices over five years, older boats tend to lack "caravan comforts" and the rise of the charter market has resulted in a lot of larger, better equipped AWBs finding their way onto second hand markets and these are, superficialy anyway, more attractive propositions. The situation is unlikely to improve.

 

[Jonny_H]

Agree - boats aren't the best 'investment' as they need constant up keep and maintenance in order to maintain their value. If you keep it looked after you shouldn't loose money - but doubt you will make money unless your lucky.

As has been said above - the enjoyment of a boat is priceless - if you want an investment buy a house / share portfolio, if you want to enjoy your money - buy a boat!

Jonny

 

[elettra]

Thanks for the comments and I have put a bit more info in my profile section.
My real dilemma is that I fear that eventually a yachts value must drop like a stone especially when compared to the ever cheaper new boat prices and I cant see where that would happen. I have seen an advert for a 35 foot/ 1973 neptunian and the spec etc looks good - but will it continue to be worth this value as a 40+ year old?
I know this question is beginning to sound like "how long is a peice of string" but does anyone know if there is an accepted view on when a boats age seriously defeats its value?

 

[Bav34]

Sorry to butt in again ....BUT......I have been asked this question numerous times by friends of mine who have come away with us and liked it so much that they have taken up sailing.

The quick and easy way to explain it is to compare boats to cars. One day, the car being bought for say 30k today will be worth NOTHING. There are Mercs, BMWs, Jags everywhere either going for scrap or on sale at the same price as a S reg Ford Ka.

You will NEVER get to the situation where say a Westerly Konsort will be at the same price as say the Leisure 17.

There will always be a significant price differential.

 

[RichardTaylor]

I own a 26 year old Westerly Griffon. New in 1981 it was around £14k. I am the 4th owner and every owner sold it for a little bit more than they paid for it. I hope to recoup my money if/when I sell her in say 5 - 10 years time. However I will have spent a goodly sum on moorings, maintenance etc, and IMO I have tarted her up visually and will be continuing to do so.

Compared to my last car which I bought at 2 years old (after the initial depreciation) paid about the same as the Griffon and 4 years later sold for only 40% of the original cost, I could argue that the Griffon is a good investment?

 

[SimonD]

I wouldn't disagree with the comments above: 'good' boats certainly seem to hold their value (in cash terms) if reasonably maintained. However, I think the question is more about will this continue? If there was a technological breakthrough that halved the cost of building boats, would old boats hold their value in this way - I suspect not.

What we have seen in recent years is an increase in boat building efficiency leading to a reduction in costs. Typically, this has resulted in a gradual increase in size for the same price rather than same boat for less money. However, this has been accompanied (some would argue) by some cost-cutting measures that mean that older boats can be favourably compared with newer ones.

These factors, together with inflation, have worked to maintain the value of older boats. My guess is that that won't change because incremental efficiency improvements will not do much more than keep pace with inflation and there is no real prospect of a step change in building costs.

Still, if Bavaria did manage to market a 31 footer for £30k, I suspect my 30 foot Westerly would no longer be worth £30k no matter how 'good' a boat it was....

 

[gjgm]

to be a little fussy.. if you buy a boat for 30k today, and sell it in 5 years for 30k, so have still lost money, as the value of that 30k changes.
Depreciation is one of the real nasties of boating. I think by choosing a popular model and make, you can help minimise this, but if you base your purchase on too strong a belief you wont lose money, I think you are on the quicksand. Another way might be to say at this age, maybe it will lose 5pct a year, and "mentally" mark the value of the boat down each year. then is a "cost" of the pleasure you get from the hobby, and hopefully the value might be a bit better, or at least, not so much worse.
Yes, some have sold a boat for more than they paid for it, but I wouldnt rely on that argument too much, as most of us are in the other camp /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[doug748]

I would not worry, nobody is suddenly going to start making 35 ft Neptunians for anything less than 3 times the price of a "modern" 35 footer. She is what she is, and they are what they are. I am sure you will get your money back pound for pound; as others have pointed out, this will be minus inflation and running costs.

 

[jwilson]

In the early/mid 1960s you could buy a brand new Nicholson 32 for about £5,000. Now it would be saleable for £10,000 even if in truly awful condition, in good condition maybe £20,000+

Unless there is something really horrible wrong with a hull, which is why you have a survey, you will spend significant money running it over the years, but should get back near what you paid provided you do maintain it. In times of high inflation it was quite common to sell a boat for more than you paid for it after a few years. Not so now, but the decline in value is slow.

 

[oldharry]

How long will GRP boats remain viable as boats. Wooden boats tend to last 30 - 50 years by which time rot and rust has eaten it away to the point where its not worth fixing it any more (and yes I know someone round here has a 150 year old wooden boat still in viable condition)

The point is that really nobody knows how long a well made GRP hull will last. Even the early ones moulded back in the late '50s can still be perfectly sound if they are looked after - I know I had a 1960 20 footer until about 3 years ago, and she is still going strong, and looking better than some a fraction of her age.

When it comes to selling any well built GRP boat, age is not really a consideration yet. Buyers will know the pedigree, and will be looking to see if the boat in question has any structural problems, is well equipped, and has been well maintained, and whther it will cost them lots to get it up to scratch. And that is as true of a five or ten year old boat as it is of a 30 or 40 year old.

Buyers will also know of the one that 'needs a bit of TLC and money thrown at it', discounted by just about the amount it would cost to put it back in order, but will be balancing that against a possibly inflated price of a decent one that really is ready to go.

As I said, its what people are prepared to pay. If the bottom falls out of the second hand market for whatever reason, then everyone who has money invested in a boat will lose it when they try to sell. Just like the housing market at the moment - how long will boom time last?

 

[moondancer]

I think most people have repeated the view that boats will generally keep their value less costs.

However, don't go into the purchase with this in mind. If you look at owning a boat from a rational business perspective I don't think many would go through with it.

You want for your Neptunian has to be a passion that pushes all thoughts of reason and practicality aside.

If not you are better off chartering some sad slow caravan type boat. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]
I am considering buying my first boat and am attracted by price and quality to boats of about 25 - 30 years old. These cost £30kish but will they hold their value? I want a boat to keep for 5 years or so and would like a residual value. All comments welcomed plse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its an interesting question, and I suspect that the answer is "no".

Hitherto, boats have tended to keep their money price, and even to inflate in times of higher general inflation. But the market is changing and becoming much more like the car market. Increasingly, buyers are buying new AWBs rather than older boats, and then chopping them in after just a few years. maybe pressuire from wives wanting the latest clean internal design. maybe its just too much to ask people to pay the same for a 10 year old Westerly as they do for a brand new Bav.

Either way thats the trend and it has clear implications for the prices of older boats. Already we have a boat graveyard at our club - a long row of old boats permanently on the hard, where the owners have lost interest but cant sell. We've had our first boat chopped up and scrapped because it couldnt be sold.

But you will still get depreciation on a new boat. So just get used to the idea that boating will cost you.

Stand by for endless posts along the lines of "my boat is now worth more than I paid for it" etc. A few will be true, most will be dreams. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Avocet]

It would be interesting to see a graph of value against time for a typical GRP "series-produced" yacht. Obviously, they don't depreciate as fast as cars because they live longer. That said, I wonder if they follow the same basic pattern - big depreciation straight out of the showroom, followed by slower depreciations (subject to maintenance) for the bulk of their lives and then (maybe?) an acceleration in depreciation towards the end.

We had a Leisure 17 for our first boat and we made money because we didn't have her long and because we did a lot of work on her. We then had an Evolution 22 which (in retrospect!) we paid a bit too much for and made a slight loss on selling. We now have a boat which is much older but which we probably won't sell.

I guess there will be "hiccups" in the value as large, expensive items get replaced - rig, sails, engine etc. I have a feeling that instruments don't necessarily add much to the value of a boat - not as much as many believe anyway, although this is just a "hunch" I have!

Finally, if depreciation is important, it might be worth staying with a well-known and respected "mass-produced" boat like a Westerly, Sadler, Contessa etc. The obscure ones (and the home-builds) might be a bit of an unknown quantity when it comes to resale.

 

[Relax]

Opinion, FWIW, - its because GRP boats are not cars that the market is not like the car market.

As many of the above posts have stated, more and more new boats are coming on the market at what appear increasingly affordable prices. At the same time the older boats (1960's/70's) are NOT falling off the other end of the market as cars do - a car with no tax/MOT etc is a liability, not an asset.

Result - you can find 150-200,000 boats for sale on the web - no matter how you cut it there are just not that number of buyers around and the vast majority of boats remain for sale for years.

My view is that any boat that is not in A1 sailaway condition will never sell unless radically discounted. I have just had this situation with getting shot of my Hunter 19 - I just could'nt find the energy to put into the sweat equity required to raise it to its 'real' selling price - went for £1,350 and I think I was lucky.

I think in the next five years there will be a significant adjustment to used boat prices.