WiFi in marinas - Lack of reliability?

[Cardo]

I've been vaguely following MoodyNick's threads about marina wifi and have also been pondering my own experiences with this.
We are berthed at Universal and I've found the reliability of the Spark system they have to be utterly shocking. Either the connections drop every few minutes, forcing you to log in again or the "distribution" box has failed, or some other glitch has occurred. I've just about managed to use it with my laptop in the past, however iPhone or iPad is quite painful (I'm guessing due to poor signal, even though we're pretty close to the nearest antenna).

However, this isn't merely a problem at Universal. I was at Cowes Yacht Haven last weekend and they provide free wifi. However, it's a pain to get it to work and it wasn't particularly reliable. I ended up using our Alfa kit to log into a "nearby" BTwifi hotspot.

I've also had issues at other marinas, however can't think specifically which ones. I am aware that these issues occur even as far as San Carles where the wifi appears to be a thorn in everyone's side.

In an age where big bandwidth is generally available in many areas, and creating a wifi infrastructure isn't particularly difficult, how is it that marinas seem to struggle so much? I could understand if it was a small marina with a home configured router to share some internet with the berth holders, but that's not the case with most of these marinas. These big marinas contract the network out to companies such as Spark who then often charge not so cheap rates for people to use their wifi. At the rates they charge, I would be expecting top rate connectivity. Instead, we get slow connections that are rarely reliable and often flat out don't work.

Many of us have given up on marina wifi and have resorted to 3G modems. Should this really have to be the case?

What on Earth is going on here?

 

[yesod]

creating a wifi infrastructure isn't particularly difficult,

thats the mistake that everyone makes. they think its easy and cheap. it isn't.

 

[Cardo]

thats the mistake that everyone makes. they think its easy and cheap. it isn't.

Easy - yes, for someone that knows what they're doing. These are professional installations. They appear to have them working in the cities, hotels, etc. why is a marina so difficult?

Cheap - For an individual to set up, maybe not. But again, these are subcontracted to companies who specialise in this and charge top dollar for their efforts.

 

[SeamanStaines]

Easy - yes, for someone that knows what they're doing. These are professional installations. They appear to have them working in the cities, hotels, etc. why is a marina so difficult?

Cheap - For an individual to set up, maybe not. But again, these are subcontracted to companies who specialise in this and charge top dollar for their efforts.

Easy, yes if you know what you are doing but do not underestimate the complexity. I have done a few, it is in no way like a hotel or cafe, you are talking about outdoor waterproof systems covering a relatively large area, with all of the attendant problems of getting power and an Internet connections to the access points.

Cheap, most certainly not (see above) so for a sensible installation you are talking thousands, not hundreds.

Then you have to maintain it and support it.

The usual issue is in the actual bandwidth being supplied to the access points and how this is paid for. It depends on the way this is done, many local hotspots simply use a password to control them, nightmare as once this is disclosed then it is soon passed on to all and sundry so you need a proper login and control system, again adding to the complexity of the installation and the support load on it.

Assuming a Marina in the UK is providing the wifi as part of its services, free of charge then it will be used by a large number of boats in the marina. Since most marinas seem to be in areas where Internet connections are difficult because of their proximity to the related telephone conversations they would typically use a single ADSL connection of about three or four mbs, shared between all of the users, hence why decent performance is impossible. Of course, they could install much faster connections at very significant cost, which they are unlikely to do as it is a 'free' service. Even if you can get a faster, fifteen or twenty mb connection it does not go far once you have two or three users downloading films and trying to stream TV.

Of course, you can stop those activities so it can only be used for very basic Internet services, people soon complain!

The chargeable connection model is not much better. Even getting three or four pounds a day, or twenty or thirty a month its hard to make it work. By the time you have paid all of the payment collection costs, installed the infrastructure and set up the support systems you need a very significant income to pay the costs and, in my experience you just don't get it, users will tend to use the marina system if it is free and a 3G card if they have to pay for it. If they do pay for it they expect it to be very fast (similar to their home systems) and this is just not going to work in a shared environment.

I tried, and I could never make it work economically.

 

[Cardo]

Easy, yes if you know what you are doing but do not underestimate the complexity. I have done a few, it is in no way like a hotel or cafe, you are talking about outdoor waterproof systems covering a relatively large area, with all of the attendant problems of getting power and an Internet connections to the access points.

Cheap, most certainly not (see above) so for a sensible installation you are talking thousands, not hundreds.

Then you have to maintain it and support it.

The usual issue is in the actual bandwidth being supplied to the access points and how this is paid for. It depends on the way this is done, many local hotspots simply use a password to control them, nightmare as once this is disclosed then it is soon passed on to all and sundry so you need a proper login and control system, again adding to the complexity of the installation and the support load on it.

Assuming a Marina in the UK is providing the wifi as part of its services, free of charge then it will be used by a large number of boats in the marina. Since most marinas seem to be in areas where Internet connections are difficult because of their proximity to the related telephone conversations they would typically use a single ADSL connection of about three or four mbs, shared between all of the users, hence why decent performance is impossible. Of course, they could install much faster connections at very significant cost, which they are unlikely to do as it is a 'free' service. Even if you can get a faster, fifteen or twenty mb connection it does not go far once you have two or three users downloading films and trying to stream TV.

Of course, you can stop those activities so it can only be used for very basic Internet services, people soon complain!

The chargeable connection model is not much better. Even getting three or four pounds a day, or twenty or thirty a month its hard to make it work. By the time you have paid all of the payment collection costs, installed the infrastructure and set up the support systems you need a very significant income to pay the costs and, in my experience you just don't get it, users will tend to use the marina system if it is free and a 3G card if they have to pay for it. If they do pay for it they expect it to be very fast (similar to their home systems) and this is just not going to work in a shared environment.

I tried, and I could never make it work economically.

Thanks for the reply. It's interesting to see it from someone who's tried/contemplated doing this kind of thing.

Essentially, it sounds like putting in a decent system simply isn't cost effective therefore the networks that are put in are bare minimum to try to make the most money at the lowest cost. With the way mobile data is improving, I wouldn't be surprised if wifi in marinas goes the way of the dodo.

 

[KellysEye]

> Either the connections drop every few minutes, forcing you to log in again or the "distribution" box has failed, or some other glitch has occurred.

It might be worth trying a high gain antenna 10db+ if the signal is weak and dropping you. Obviously it won't help failures.

Beware of free wifi if it doesn't have a password, it's a hackerrs dream.

 

[Topcat47]

It's a scam to get you to ring the help lines from your mobile. My last try in Yarmouth ended up with my £1.50 being refunded by the provider but not the cost of the five phone calls I made to the premium rate number trying to get it to work. I'll ot bother until we have 4G now.

 

[RobbieW]

... I am aware that these issues occur even as far as San Carles where the wifi appears to be a thorn in everyone's side...

... Since most marinas seem to be in areas where Internet connections are difficult because of their proximity to the related telephone conversations they would typically use a single ADSL connection of about three or four mbs, shared between all of the users, hence why decent performance is impossible...

Having some knowledge of Sant Carles, the boats there but I'm not currently, its much as SS says. There's not a lot wrong with the marina set up but it feeds into the local town telephony providers network which is linked, in turn, to the regional network via a 10Mb 4G connection. Often the actual bottleneck is not where our perception sees it, in Sant Carles case the marina have little influence on the investment decisions of the local carrier.

 

[Cardo]

Having some knowledge of Sant Carles, the boats there but I'm not currently, its much as SS says. There's not a lot wrong with the marina set up but it feeds into the local town telephony providers network which is linked, in turn, to the regional network via a 10Mb 4G connection. Often the actual bottleneck is not where our perception sees it, in Sant Carles case the marina have little influence on the investment decisions of the local carrier.

Sadly the available bandwidth is always going to be out of the Marian's hands. However, I still find the authentication systems a lot of marinas use appear cumbersome and often either don't work or keep logging you out for no apparent reason. Surely it shouldn't be that difficult to obtain/supply reliable management software for the routers?

 

[derekgillard]

I think you waste too much time. I got myself a wireless device that gives me 5GB per month which unless you stream is more than ever needed ? No more looking for wifi.

Del buoy

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Cardo,

There are a number of issues:
- when wifi was originally installed in marinas, it was in its infancy and what was an acceptable quality then is unacceptable now
- many marinas are still using the same old kit, only working on 2.4Ghz and not meshed
- more than 50% of mobile devices are now looking for the newer 5Ghz carrier first and if unsuccessful fall back to 2.4Ghz, hence not so effective on old kit
- there needs to be some control on utilization of the bandwidth because nobody wants Joe Public pulling up in the marina or even the car park and screwing it up for everybody else
- signal quality is disturbed by lack of clear line of sight, eg masts, high sided boats,
- some marinas are out in the sticks and faster broadband services available to people at home are not available to the marina.

Just a few generalisations which apply to varying extents.

 

[Vanilla]

Thanks to everyone who has explained many of the issues involved in setting up reliable marina wifi.....but my gripe is being charged full whack for something which does not work properly. The BT wifi at Haslar is also very unreliable and slooooooooooooow but at least I don't have to pay as I have BT at home ( and yes I know I should change ISP)

 

[flawed_logic]

We're also on wifi spark ( Brixham MDL) and its truly shocking, unusable at best. I bought a mifi which works well but it costs a tenner a month http://store.three.co.uk/Mobile_Broadband/MiFi

 

[Steve Clayton]

Here's the current speedtest results for Birdham Pool; so the same distance to the exchange and using similar copper twisted pair

Two wifi services here (plus a couple of BT homehubs providing Openzone)

This result is the marina provided wifi (free to berth-holders, password protected). Recently installed with a few minor teething problems. T'other day it took 10 minutes to download a Merlin episode from BBC - for wifi "out in the sticks" it doesn't get any better than this.

BPM
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2364818470.png

This is BTOpenzone - again it's another service with marina access points. We (that's me and Mike) had BT come in 15months ago to resolve the instability, poor connection issues that were facing us at that time. Took 6 weeks of BT escalation to get them to come in - but once here it was all sorted within a couple of hours (I do some BT Openzone beta testing now and again when they ask me to do some tests) and has provided a good and reliable service for the last 14 months.
BT
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2364823244.png

 

[charles_reed]

Here's the current speedtest results for Birdham Pool; so the same distance to the exchange and using similar copper twisted pair

Two wifi services here (plus a couple of BT homehubs providing Openzone)

This result is the marina provided wifi (free to berth-holders, password protected). Recently installed with a few minor teething problems. T'other day it took 10 minutes to download a Merlin episode from BBC - for wifi "out in the sticks" it doesn't get any better than this.

BPM
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2364818470.png

This is BTOpenzone - again it's another service with marina access points. We (that's me and Mike) had BT come in 15months ago to resolve the instability, poor connection issues that were facing us at that time. Took 6 weeks of BT escalation to get them to come in - but once here it was all sorted within a couple of hours (I do some BT Openzone beta testing now and again when they ask me to do some tests) and has provided a good and reliable service for the last 14 months.
BT
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2364823244.png

Both slow enough to justify criticism.

I gave up on any free wi-fi about 6 years ago after consistently expensive and dissatisfying results through most Mediterranean and W European countries. So since early 2007 I've always used cellular mobile. This has consistently improved over the years and, in a cell with a reasonable signal I'm able to improve on either two Birdham results.
What I do find surprising is the assymmetry of the upload speeds, a fact that I've accepted with cellular but one which I'd find unacceptable in an ADSL connection.

I must stress that my experience vis a vis cellular and public WiLan is mainly outside the UK (but I still find UK public WiLans unacceptably degraded when I do use them).

I accept that marina operators face an almost impossible task to provide continuously adequate service and am surprised that so many people continue to beat their heads against a brick wall and then complain about their headache.

PS in Greece I pay €15/5Gb/month and see downloads in the order of 2.8-4.2 Mb/s and in UK 8.4-9.0Mb/s (the latter on thin Ethernet and using a Linux distro) @ £14.49/10Gb/month including all telephony free. The latter also gives me free upload/download capacity off peak.

 

[bendyone]

Calais marina has a Netabord system with access points on each pontoon, mine is about 15m away but it costs €15 for 24 hours of access over 1 week, it is so slow and unreliable it is of no use to me.
There are no internet cafes that I know of in Calais, the only good place is Macdonnalds.

 

[RobbieW]

...
What I do find surprising is the assymmetry of the upload speeds, a fact that I've accepted with cellular but one which I'd find unacceptable in an ADSL connection...

The clue is in the name, ADSL....

 

[Steve Clayton]

Charles; a few comments:

Both slow enough to justify criticism.

Depends on the criteria/other access mediums, etc that you want to assess WiFi against. In my situation:
it's not fibre connection; it's old fashioned copper.
it's not direct connect (ethernet/rj45); it's radio waves to a secondary access point bounced to the primary node and then down the twisted pair.
it's about 4 miles to the exchange.
BUT it's BT!!

Given the download speeds under these conditions then almost a MByte a minute isn't bad

I gave up on any free wi-fi about 6 years ago after consistently expensive and dissatisfying results through most Mediterranean and W European countries.........I must stress that my experience vis a vis cellular and public WiLan is mainly outside the UK (but I still find UK public WiLans unacceptably degraded when I do use them).

6 years ago we'd have been looking at the likes of Square-Mile; and the mindset then was that it was reasonable to pay for it - cos there wasn't any feasible alternative. Trouble was that it was a CARP service; and in some situations and some providers then it still is. Technology has moved on and wifi is now a commodity service that is so common it's usually accepted to be free; and if you want a free, good, fast service then Starbucks will give you this; as will Tescos stores and hundreds of other locations.

So since early 2007 I've always used cellular mobile. This has consistently improved over the years and, in a cell with a reasonable signal I'm able to improve on either two Birdham results.

It's the way of things and the improvement in service delivery gets better and faster. Your "reasonable signal" will either be 3G or HSPA; on either of these then, in any situation, it will/should be a faster user experience than a Wifi connection

I accept that marina operators face an almost impossible task to provide continuously adequate service and am surprised that so many people continue to beat their heads against a brick wall and then complain about their headache

.

The continuity aspect is not totally in the hands of the marina; eg Twatter last week:
BT ‏@BTCare 3rd Dec
Sorry if you were unable to use the Internet this morning we've got a network problem affecting some customers nationwide, more updates soon

CARP marina wifi services; can't connect, dropouts, login again takes forever - we've probably all seen these. For me I would rather have no marina wifi service at all than the frustration of this sort of connection; which is why, whilst I have pretty good marina services, then I'm also in control with an HSPA dongle, unlimited BTOpenzone Wifi, tethering phone services via Vodafone and T-Mobile, and a high gain wifi antenna that can see 4 or 5 BT homehubs.

In most situations marina wifi services are outsourced; and when problems occur, as they will, then the supplier should be easy to contact and very responsive in problem resolution. If they aren't, and there is an unhappy group of people then maybe start a Facebook page and point boaty forums to it?
That said we are seeing the trend that people are no longer dependent on OEM Wifi providers; we've all (well most of us) have got smartphones or tablets that deliver the comms and internet services that we need in this day and age and marina wifi, in the not too distant future, will become a "nice to have" feature but not really necessary for the majority of peeps

 

[Georgio]

Given that Wifi seems to be generally poor I'm wondering why marina operators don't look at EoP (Ethernet over power), I use it at home and have been really impressed.

I'm sure that they could come up with a model that allows users to rent a EoP module for a particular fee per month, or visitors could rent one for the night.

Or is this a bonkers idea. I guess that Wifi is so prevalent that it's going to be hard to introduce a new technology.

 

[Cardo]

Given that Wifi seems to be generally poor I'm wondering why marina operators don't look at EoP (Ethernet over power), I use it at home and have been really impressed.

I'm sure that they could come up with a model that allows users to rent a EoP module for a particular fee per month, or visitors could rent one for the night.

Or is this a bonkers idea. I guess that Wifi is so prevalent that it's going to be hard to introduce a new technology.

To be fair, the issues I usually find aren't connecting to the local hotspot, but what happens after that. The authentication mechanisms are usually dreadfully awful.