WiFi Bat - seeking feedback please

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bjl

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I left UK a few weeks ago and I'm having a great time abroad. I'm taking the dinghy ashore a couple of times a day for a walk or a cycle ride and I'm taking the opportunity to do Internet stuff whilst I'm ashore, usually in cafes or bars. What a great lifestyle! I'm in the process of getting a 3G mifi data only dongle that will give me connectivity from anchorages within 3G range but I've also heard of the 'wifi Bat'. It's supposed to be an excellent bit of kit with up to 10 miles range. The only thing is that I'm abroad and I would need to install the kit myself. Therefore I'd need excellent after sales support - real Janet and John stuff - from a supplier who would go the extra mile to satisfy a computer illiterate client!

I've heard that the company Mailasail sell the Wifi Bat but that it appears to be only their secondary business: their primary business being selling satellite communications and air time.

What is the experience of the forumites with the Wifi Bat and with the company? Your help would be most appreciated.
 
I have a wifi-bat which works as well as I would expect this type of of device to. Support from mail a sail is however very good and there business model is to provide a very high level of support, particularly to people without a lot of computer knowledge. I would recommend them as a company to deal with.

However, any wifi aerial, such as the wifi-bat is not a reliable way to connect at anchor, particularly in remote place. It relies on you finding a suitable bar, hotel or similar that has a wifi connection and obtaining the password for it. Many of these systems are very low powered and, to be honest, I reckon the range is more like a couple of hundred metres. Some places have chargeable systems that have much better coverage (many marinas have) and the wifi-bat will help you get a more reliable connection.

As a general rule, if your laptop can 'see' the hotspot, but not connect as the signal strength is to low, the wifi-bat will probably get it. My experience in the real world though is that, although the wifi in a local bar works perfectly well when you are sitting there, forget it from a couple of hundred metres off shore. The sin reason for this is that the bar owners are not stupid so they tend to put there wifi access point where it works in the bar and nowhere else. The

For reliable Internet access whilst cruising, 3G data is the only way to go. The 'ten miles' is a theoretical figure in perfect conditions, I do this for a living and the kit to actually get that far is both expensive and requires installation at both ends, you can't do it with a cheap wifi box at one end!

Having said all of that, one benefit of the wifi-bat is it plugs into their 'red box' device which allows you to share a single connection, both 3G and wifi amongst many devices on board (there are lots of other ways to do this as well)
 
I think SeamanStaines has said it all!

The Wifi Bat is a great product *for wifi*, but 3G, (and satellite if you need to go further out) complement each other. In general you need all of them

Mifi's are great and cheap. However, increasingly boats are getting wifi on the 3G, wifi repeat on the wifi booster, wifi on the NMEA/AIS, wifi on the ships internal network (to watch films, etc), and before you know it you need to be on three wifi networks at once (which you can't). So do also please have a peek at our Red Box, which tries to consolidate everything onboard onto a single (very low power) wifi network.

However, drop us a line or give us a call on Monday if we can help!

Thanks for the kind reply! (and thanks for your interest in our wifi bat!)

Ed W
 
Oh, forgot...

Regarding range. We do have a real customer getting more than 10 miles of range... However, we have *lots* of customers telling us they are getting 2-4 miles of range to good wifi access points. So I think the summary probably is:

- Realistically if you have *line of sight* to the wifi access point, you can achieve miles of range
- If you have a brick wall in the way, then you probably achieve 10s of meters...

So line of sight pretty much defines total range more than anything else. Wifi is quite high frequency and doesn't go "around things"...

Also I don't have any evidence that height makes a great deal of difference, other than you might get line of sight when you wouldn't higher/lower down. In theory you have Fresnell Zones and interesting things like that (see Wikipedia for more), but if you go calculate them, you see you will need many 10s of meters to make a difference at even short ranges, so in practice they aren't relevant (is my observation)

So ideal mounting is a radar pole/arch. Otherwise probably rear pushpit is ok. Probably up the mast is more hassle than it's worth...

This advice applies to all wifi devices (and 3G probably) not just our Wifi Bat

Good luck

Ed W
 
We have a wifi bat from mail a sail , we hoist it on a flag line when we are in harbour, works just fine, but as said it is just an amplifier of existing wifi signals from ashore, so works well when near a community with an open access wifi point or near cafes and bars that allow customers to use their facilities. ( i will continue to frequent the same bar if using their wifi)

If your more in the wilds a three style dongle is of more use but does still rely on getting a mobile phone signal which will require civilizatation of one sort or another within range.

As mail a sail says beyond that and offshore if you want reliable connections you need to upgrade to sat phones and then we are talking big bucks

Part of the "fun" is going ashore and exploring the places we visit , just take your phone/ ipad / laptop along for the ride their is usually a connection to be had somewhere , the bat gets you a little more coverage and convenience whilst sat at "home" .

As for back up , i changed from a windows based laptop to a mac book and couldnt use the disc as it was a micro disk and apparently will get stuck in the mac book drive ? So asked mailasail for help , they directed me to the online downloads which worked , its was quick and painless .
 
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Ok, this is going to be a little more technical than the OP asked for....

From the look of the Bat, its a repackaged Ubiquiti Bullet with a USB interface rather than the ethernet one the Bullet has. Fair enough for simplicity but sending 5V along more than 5 metres of cable starts to lead to volt drop and power loss at the device. Better imo to stick with the power-over-ethernet solution of the Bullet; the ethernet connection works around the signal loss of having a remote aerial & the voltage can be 12-30v so giving more push for a longer cable if necessary.

My own evolving ryo solution currently uses a Bullet feeding into a router, ASUS RT-N16. The router has had its firmware replaced with a Tomato variant that supports a 3G dongle and runs a VPN client (if you do find a free wifi its comforting to think that you're not sending anything in 'clear', even though many websites and email services now have a level of encryption).

The Bullet does the wifi pick up and the router shares any internet connectivity it gets (mostly 3G) with all the devices on board - simples (well, eventually :))
 
We think its good!

bjl said:
I left UK a few weeks ago and I'm having a great time abroad. I'm taking the dinghy ashore a couple of times a day for a walk or a cycle ride and I'm taking the opportunity to do Internet stuff whilst I'm ashore, usually in cafes or bars. What a great lifestyle! I'm in the process of getting a 3G mifi data only dongle that will give me connectivity from anchorages within 3G range but I've also heard of the 'wifi Bat'. It's supposed to be an excellent bit of kit with up to 10 miles range. The only thing is that I'm abroad and I would need to install the kit myself. Therefore I'd need excellent after sales support - real Janet and John stuff - from a supplier who would go the extra mile to satisfy a computer illiterate client!

In our experience, an excellent bit of kit from a company with fantastic customer service. It is very simple to install and use, even for "Janet & John" types like us. However, it is what it claims to be, a Wifi antenna and Seaman S has made the point well, you have to find a Wifi signal that you can access with the appropriate password etc. We find the various Fon sites very good in urban areas of countries that have the system. The signal quality that the Bat pulls in is excellent and we rarely get any drop out once established. Range obviously depends upon what the site on land is putting out as well as distance. When in one place for any time we run the antenna up the shroud on a signal halliard otherwise have it on the rail but do not normally have it deployed when on the move. Tec savvy friends claim that they can achieve similar results by a d-i-y kit costing a fraction of the Bat purchase price and they can, I have seen and used it, but it looks very Heath Robinson and is way beyond my know-how level to make and use as a routine. One minor doubt is the waterproofing of the unit. After a few months use and after very heavy rain storms mine ceased working and upon examination out poured significant amounts of water. MailaSail went to great lengths to get a replacement unit out to me in double quick time with no quibble or hesitation. The replacement unit has been reinforced by me with self amalgamating tape and sealant at the joins - probably unnecessarily, and has survived heavy weather with no problem this season. This kit certainly does the business for us and with a suitable 3G dongle gives a very comprehensive set up.
We have no connection with the company other than as a very satisfied customer.
Fair winds.
Click to expand...
 
Another thread on the bat here:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?311809-Anyone-using-A-Wifi-Bat
Also discussed in a more recent thread on long range wifi here, which also discusses other options:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?363923-WiFi-antenna

The bat is a different concept to the bullet, essentially appearing to the host computer like a USB wifi dongle thingy. If the OP can install drivers for a wifi dongle and plug one in, then that's the technical part of "installation". As RobbieW points out, a >5m cable is beyond spec for USB2 running at high speed and this was a concern I brought up with mailasail who acknowledge the beyond-spec length but assured me that they had been tested with 2x extension cables added in (so 36m?). Certainly I've never seen a problem with mine (12m, no extension).

To answer the OP's specific question, the Bat has done exactly what I expected it to (though see mailasail's comments regarding range) and construction is fairly robust. Support from Mailasail is outstanding. Rather than some callcentre monkey most of the support seems to be handled directly by the very technical head honcho (Ed who posts here as MailASail and seems to take care to not push his products when they're not ideal). No connection beyond being a bat purchaser and having discussed it and other products with Ed at the boat show and by email.

Per the second thread above, I think there are now similar and considerably cheaper alternatives available (although I would doubt support would be comparable if you need it) and the OP might consider something a bit different like the bullet depending on his/her technical requirements and abilities.
 
This morning I sailed to the city to collect a Huawei mobile wifi dongle and data SIM so for the first time I'm able to surf the Internet afloat, which is what I'm doing now back at anchor.

There are some pretty comprehensive replies both from satisfied customers and from MailASail: thank you one and all for your help. I need to follow the threads in some of the responses and to do a bit more reading. It's definately given me something to think about. In particular, I have to work out exactly what capability I need or want and then how it can be satisfied

Thank you again for your help.
 
RobbieW said:
Ok, this is going to be a little more technical than the OP asked for....

From the look of the Bat, its a repackaged Ubiquiti Bullet with a USB interface rather than the ethernet one the Bullet has.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. Nor is the Bullet a repackaged 'Bat (since you could equally rephrase it the other way around).

We are using an off the shelf and fairly common plastic housing, and it's true that a number of other manufacturers are using either the same housing or at least a very similar housing. In fact if you look very closely at the Bullet you will see that the plastic housing is actually different, if similar... (However, I think there are other products with the same housing, just not the Bullet)


RobbieW said:
Fair enough for simplicity but sending 5V along more than 5 metres of cable starts to lead to volt drop and power loss at the device. Better imo to stick with the power-over-ethernet solution of the Bullet; the ethernet connection works around the signal loss of having a remote aerial & the voltage can be 12-30v so giving more push for a longer cable if necessary.
Click to expand...

You are conflating a number of issues here?
1) Voltage drop is irrelevant as long as "it works". USB is a clever standard and you are allowed to use repeaters to boost the signal (curiously, themselves powered by the USB cable...). USB cable lengths have crept up to a max of 12m now (you will see 20m and the like, but look closely to see they are really 2x 10m cables glued together, ie 10m cables, ie <12m). We have tested the Wifi Bat with 4x 12m extensions, ie 48m of cable.

2) "Working around the signal loss by having a remote aerial" - this makes no sense? Our experience is that having "remote aerials" looses a ton of wifi signal in the cable and whilst you *can* do it with the Bat (the antenna just unscrews if you want to swap it out), it's not optimal. Minimise antenna cables with wifi...

3) POE is great for longer runs, better than USB. However, USB has some advantages in that it works more easily and offers tighter integration with the laptop. On Win7/8 you don't even need a driver disk, just connect the Wifi Bat and it works out of the box. (XP/Mac/Linux get the driver from our website or it's on the CD in the box). On Windows for example it just gives you a second wifi connection exactly like the built in wifi. You will even find the auto connect works, ie if you walked into the bar and entered the settings, then when you go back to the boat and plug in the bat, the same network will auto connect via the Bat (cool!)

4) Additionally USB means we get the same tight integration with our Red Box router. Plug in the Wifi Bat into the Red Box and it's immediately detected and made ready for use. We then can use a single web interface to control all the connected internet devices on the router (eg 3G card, wifi booster, sat phone, + NMEA/AIS inputs). You can definitely use the Bullet with our Red Box router, but the interface is slightly less neat because you have two web interfaces, one for the router, another for the Bullet - not the end of the world, but the reason we went for the USB design


Overall:
- Please avoid adding antenna cable between radio card and antenna - we find it destroys capability a lot
- Use POE if you need very long runs, eg >10m increments (ie Bullet, Yachtspot, et al)
- USB is nice (ie Wifi Bat) for most normal situations where you will plug the device either directly into the computer or via our Red Box router, especially if you have ambitions in the future to add to the boat comms setup adding say 3G cards, perhaps satellite comms or want to link up the NMEA/AIS, all onto a single easy to use network

With regards to Janet and John, please see above for "just plug it in" on most modern Windows computers - we don't even need to offer a hand if you use Win 7/8 and even on XP/Mac it's just a case of running the driver and then "just plug it in", so hardly much more taxing

Hopefully that helps?

Note - I don't read the forum all that often, so please ping me by email if there is some post I haven't responded to or if you have any specific questions?

Good luck

Ed W
 
RobbieW said:
More in line with the question - had you found this...
http://www.crucialwifi.co.uk/product/marina wireless network complete kit

It also appears to be based on a Bullet, designed for cruisers use and less than a third the price of the Bat with added function. No idea about the company though
Click to expand...

The Ubiquiti has no functionality to integrate either 3G or NMEA so is a totally different solution. I have installed commercially a lot of bullet's and you do need a reasonable amount of techincal ability to both use them and install them. (as its not a single solution, you need a bullet and a router).

As a general point BTW the bullet is not a weatherproof as the specificaition implies.
 
MailASail said:
... 2) "Working around the signal loss by having a remote aerial" - this makes no sense? Our experience is that having "remote aerials" looses a ton of wifi signal in the cable and whilst you *can* do it with the Bat (the antenna just unscrews if you want to swap it out), it's not optimal. Minimise antenna cables with wifi...
Click to expand...

My poor english I'm afraid, '...signal loss of having a remote aerial...' might have been better. I'd tried both extended USB and extended aerial cables before settling on the PoE solution, though its not an especially long run, mostly as long ethernet cabling is cheap as chips. Interesting to know that the Bat is not a Bullet but the Alfa Tube also looks much the same and has the USB interface. I'm interested in the capability of your Red Box though and its set me searching to see how the NMEA function could be rolled into the solution I already have.
 
My husband found the same problem with the wifi bat, in that it seemed to stop working after heavy rainstorms. Mailasail's customer service was great, but after the 2nd wifi bat replacement failed again with the same problem, he decided to buy an Alfa Networks Tube-U & aeriel. Seems to do the same job, but at a fraction of the price.

Can't advise on Alfa's customer service as we've never had to return it.
 
SeamanStaines said:
The Ubiquiti has no functionality to integrate either 3G or NMEA so is a totally different solution. I have installed commercially a lot of bullet's and you do need a reasonable amount of techincal ability to both use them and install them. (as its not a single solution, you need a bullet and a router).

As a general point BTW the bullet is not a weatherproof as the specificaition implies.
Click to expand...

The comparison was with the Bat standalone. The Bullet alone doesnt have those integrations, nor does the Bat, but the 'solution' linked to includes an Alfa R36 in addition to the Alfa Tube (which again looks like a Bullet with USB). The R36 carries the 3G integration but wasnt flexible enough for the other functions I was interested in at the time. I'm now looking at whether my existing router can be extended to carry NMEA over ethernet, that'll keep me interested for a month or two.

I'd also add that I'm no networking guru but havent found setting up or using the Bullet difficult (including trying out DD-WRT on it). I do think that competent PC skills are just one of those things that need to be added to the set for comfortable cruising though.
 
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Where is the base station and what is between you and the base station. Also.... if it is (for example) a bar, I often find they have set it up such that you can barely get a connection outside. So, is it 40mts to the entrance to the bar or 40mts to the actual base station.

Finally, do you have any other wifi gear on board that may be on the same channel?


michael_w said:
Just bought one. Keeps on dropping out, The base station is about 40m away!
Click to expand...
 
RobbieW said:
The router has had its firmware replaced with a Tomato variant that supports a 3G dongle and runs a VPN client (if you do find a free wifi its comforting to think that you're not sending anything in 'clear')
Click to expand...

It's a good point.

Who runs the server end of the VPN you use?

(Not meaning to imply you shouldn't trust them, just curious as to what's available in this area as I've never needed to look.)

Pete
 
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