Wife loves boats but hates sailing

[MapisM]

MapisM Scala reports previous training in navel architecture

I know, but that has nothing to see with what you said.
I.E., that I misread and din’t understand the thread, because "Mrs Scala has tried AN OTHER boat and it did not go well".
Now, my very simple question was: where did the OP say that?
Answer on a postcard, please. Something like "my mistake" would do.

Regardless, if you are suggesting that Mrs Scala would be happier to cruise with your Itama rather than even the larger among the previous boats I mentioned, well, all I can say (to put it politely) is dream on.

 

[MapisM]

I don't think anyone is disrupting that a 25deg deadrise boat optimised for planing will be more comfortable and ride more smoothly and probably use a lot less fuel, than a similar size/mass 12deg boat optimised for space (or whatever).

Actually that's only partially correct, because the smoother ride of deep vee hulls doesn't imply a better efficiency, meant as lower fuel burn.
By and large, it's rather the opposite: AOTBE, shallow deadrise boats stay on the plane at lower speed and burn less fuel, both in terms of GPH and MPG.

 

[Portofino]

I know, but that has nothing to see with what you said.
I.E., that I misread and din’t understand the thread, because "Mrs Scala has tried AN OTHER boat and it did not go well".
Now, my very simple question was: where did the OP say that?
Answer on a postcard, please. Something like "my mistake" would do.

Regardless, if you are suggesting that Mrs Scala would be happier to cruise with your Itama rather than even the larger among the previous boats I mentioned, well, all I can say (to put it politely) is dream on.

Talk about nit picking ,the implication was along those lines how ever the debate was on nervous / delicate crew .

I have already illustrated the importance of dead rise with figure 11 of the link posted above .
If you can understand it there will be some overlap length wise interns of vertical acceleration , dead-rise and also added into the mix trim angle .
The OP gets that which in my book matters .

I have outrun bigger boats MapisM as I have said above in previous posts on here .Why ?
The vertical acceleration of a S/ Skr hat 60 was greater in the same sea than mine so much so the guests ( Ok likely Mrs PF and Mrs Scala types ie not Robin Knox Johnson ) we’re puking and whinging the skipper followed my wake .
I knew the guy and I deliberately slowed sos not to leave him .I repeat he popped round to sort of explain his closeness to my stern .

Anyhow look at that figure 11 and go figure .Can you see the reduction of V ac sometimes 1/2 ved or more can be done by manipulating the deadrise and trim angle .

A blanket bigger as in longer is not necessarily the answer as I keep saying it’s one part but the whole seakeeping thingy is the SUM of all or as many parts the designer can fit in and the hidden killers are poxy dead rise and $hit running trim .
So I,am saying a 23 degree flat sub 2 degree trim ( no tab ) 42 ftr hull will be more comfortable in terms of V ac * than a bigger 60 ftr say 14 degree dead rise , bow high “ moon shot “ in the same head seas .

Done the practical re search seen it .

V ac * is vertical acceleration a quantitative measure of uncomfortable and proportional to puking - sea sickness .

How ever the OP has set his L around mid forties for perfectly understandable reasons so why you keep pushing a bigger boat only oblivious/ ignoring hull form I don’t know .

Have you have actually put a list up or suggestion btw ? Or just nit picked away .?

At the Op,s clarity on use age .
We used to “wind finder “ “ passage planner “ walk round to get the net print out from the marina office every day before going out .

Since the Itama that’s dropped off to maybe 2/3 times a week .Such is Mrs PFs confidence in Er that H word ....HULL form :encouragement:

Our new threshold for a day in port is a written F 6 , but as said most days we never know how it’s gonna turn out because from a V ac POV it really does not make a difference such is the wave slicing ability of the current hull .
It can get wet head on ,or at the bow 1/4 in over a 6 so we put the front cover on if we see large white horses .Bay of Cannes does blow up occasionally in the afternoon in the summer btw - large white horses etc .
We never do D even in the roughest seas ,speed improves the ride counterintuitively , any landings are soft .
That’s how we use our boat point and squirt .

We’ve done long trips like Porqurolles to Cannes after a day of mistral F8 perhaps eased to a 6 .The only ones to go out .
Down wind I ll add .
We have ripped around the St Trop peninsula in a blown up afternoon chop , totally relaxed ( actually quite fun tbo ) while others have had a torrid time reduced to D .

 

[Portofino]

Here’s a Riva 52 .What you can’t see is the slamming .Yup even in that sea knack all by my and most on here standards .
How ever short sharp and nosey slamming .Had to drop down to 22/24 knots from 30 + in that .Huge disappointing day .
Reason = pancake flat dead rise .So the extra L compared to this did not work .
And yes I played with the tabs too , it had V drives so the engine optimisation was dropped as one “ sum “ Max tab did reduce the slamming ( V ac ) it but not enough .

Yet this .....
Is F 6 gusting 8 on the beam of my boat .Wet yes but the V ac is ok tolerable . No prizes for questing what this is


Perfectly typical big three 48 ftr , IPS note the trim , he’s on full tab and 24 knots he starts to feel it so prefers to drop to 22 .
It’s not rough by any standards in my book .
Ave dead rise mid teens maybe flatter being IPS for stern lift .Tbo I don’t know exactly, mid teens might be optimistic.
Can’t sort the trim out due to rear weight bias - nice mid cabin though. which was the deal clincher .


Here we are running it down turning across its wake ( cos we can ) he’s at 22 I,am running at 27 knots and see over my bow sat down .

Cruising in Co does not work basically his boat maybe a meter longer at the WL , same beams but what a huge difference in ride .Totally predictable if he was allowed to look under the skirt at a boat show .

It’s lasted 1 season - listed now .

Deja vue Scala

 

[Portofino]

View attachment 77316
Here’s a Riva 52 .What you can’t see is the slamming .Yup even in that sea knack all by my and most on here standards .
How ever short sharp and nosey slamming .Had to drop down to 22/24 knots from 30 + in that .Huge disappointing day .
Reason = pancake flat dead rise .So the extra L compared to this did not work .
And yes I played with the tabs too , it had V drives so the engine optimisation was dropped as one “ sum “ Max tab did reduce the slamming ( V ac ) it but not enough .

Yet this ..... View attachment 77317
Is F 6 gusting 8 on the beam of my boat .Wet yes but the V ac is ok tolerable . No prizes for questing what this is

View attachment 77318
Perfectly typical big three 48 ftr , IPS note the trim , he’s on full tab and 24 knots he starts to feel it so prefers to drop to 22 ,as wife starts to complain re slamming .
It’s not rough by any standards in my book .
Ave dead rise mid teens maybe flatter being IPS for stern lift .Tbo I don’t know exactly, mid teens might be optimistic.
Can’t sort the trim out due to rear weight bias - nice mid cabin though. which was the deal clincher .

View attachment 77319
Here we are running it down turning across its wake ( cos we can ) he’s at 22 I,am running at 27 knots and see over my bow sat down .

Cruising in Co does not work basically his boat maybe a meter longer at the WL , same beams but what a huge difference in ride .Totally predictable if he was allowed to look under the skirt at a boat show .

It’s lasted 1 season - listed now .

Deja vue Scala

 

[MapisM]

Talk about nit picking

Yeah, right. And talk about postcard answers - let alone apologies for having written total BS.

No worries anyhow, I've had enough of this thread which you managed - yet again - to turn into an Itama OCD.
You and a handful of my compatriots are right, and 99.9% of boaters are wrong.
There, is this a conclusion you can agree with?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

That very bow up attitude in Pic 3 / 4 looks all wrong to me.

I've learned a lot here thank you.

 

[Mr Googler]

Fairline Targa 43 is rated to have excellent sea keeping. pm Ian MacAulay from the forum. He has one at hamble point and can give you real world / Solent use info :encouragement:

 

[Portofino]

Yeah, right. And talk about postcard answers - let alone apologies for having written total BS.

No worries anyhow, I've had enough of this thread which you managed - yet again - to turn into an Itama OCD.
You and a handful of my compatriots are right, and 99.9% of boaters are wrong.
There, is this a conclusion you can agree with?

That’s a bit rude and I suspect most reading that will raise an eyebrow .

I don’t see this as a polar argument from my POV .If you have not realised seakeeping it’s a spectrum , the sum of a lot of parts , some more effective than others .


Threads about essentially comfort, seakeeping and in particular keeping the wife happy with the hobby .
I can relate to to the wife thingy and see the link have been there .
So I feel I can make a useful contribution from first hand experience.Yes there’s a strong Itama content , isn’t that natural for me in this case ?

OP,s layed out a substantial amount of £ and probably time in the new sail boat and is asking for advice.
I don’t want him or Mrs Scala walking along a jetty of forty somethings and thinking they all handle the sea the same and finding out after too late it could have been different .

If you care to read my posts here I took advise before changing boats .I don’t think that advise would be different today as it was 4 / 5 years ago if you waltzed into Monaco marine.

And yes it’s looks ridiculous larger boats ending up running in my wake in stiff over F5 .I don’t force them it happens .

There’s reasons why and as I said earlier rather than me babble on best to link a NA work in particular that figure 11 . Apologies if that did not work with you and apologies to Scala for “ grandma being taught to suck an egg “ from his NA background.

I have never said anybody inc you are wrong or got somehow the wrong boat .
I seem to have touched a raw nerve with you on that unwittingly I,ll add .

My “ crew “ predicament “ sounds identical to Scalas basically forced us to look a deeper past the “cockpit griddle “ .

Incidentally the hull form problem cum wife issue occurs at all levels .
I was talking to the owner of Pershing 115 ( well wife’s are friends ) and exactly the same issues .
They were serial S/Skr owners and put the brand new big Pred up for sale after one, that’s right one season because wife poo poo ed the ride .
The Pershing has a waaaay superior ride .
Sea state all relative of course but the hulls are different and that reflected in the ride .

Hope that helps everyone with delicate “ crew “

 

[Portofino]

That very bow up attitude in Pic 3 / 4 looks all wrong to me.

I've learned a lot here thank you.

Tnx

Yes i VHF d him and advise to lower some tab .
“ they are full down “ came back .

And yes we did a snorkel later to test them , they worked .

So in a chop any fine fwd entry is lost .

The worst marketing example I can think of is Van Dutch 40
Forget the topsides take a look at the hull .
Very sharp fwd entry sections so far so good but at about 1/2 way it suddenly flattens .The sterndrives hang off a tiny dead rise .So plenty of stern lift .
It works to a point the sharp entry slicing through in small waves relative to the boat L 12 M , but as soon at it cuts up and the bow lifts due to the wave height increasing then the mid flat sections take the hit .
They all bar none can’t go fast in anything over say 1 M .They all back down in short sharp chops , they have to .
Once at semi planing say 17 knots or what ever they start to pitch in 2 M waves as there’s not enough bow fullness , convexity to lift it over so it dips in now .The loss of fwd speed looses any dynamic stability and the rear end weight bias leads to exaggerated pitching .

You won’t pick up on that at a boat show if the hull is skirted or calm sea state test drive .

 

[Whippersnapper]

MapisM Scala reports previous training in navel architecture ..
So I feel justified posting this
http://oa.upm.es/14340/2/Documentacion/3_Formas/Savitskyreport_conSemidesplazamiento.pdf

Go to page 19
See the dead rise comments and further the running angle trim comments .
See the graph no 11 . Not the vertical acceleration reductions .

I have not brought trim into this because it seems to me folks like you just ridicule the science .
The best seakeepers run at less than 4 degrees.Mine needs zero flap to plane or run at all .It just runs flat .Well under 4 degrees .So now we are drifting into Cog , Mid engines away from rear engines etc .
As I said It’s the sum of ALL the parts added up .Drop bits and you start loose it from a sea keeping POV .

Interesting but not for the reasons you state. Earlier you recalled that deadrise was so critical it might affect vertical acceleration to the power of 2 or 3. In fact in the equation it is linear so plotting a curve for say 19° vs 23° is only going to show a variance in proportion to their difference ~ 17°. The equation does highlight the critical impact of speed as it affects vertical acceleration in proportion to its square. So double the speed, 4 times the acceleration. Do the math and it appears the same vertical acceleration would be seen in a 23° deadrise boat at 25kn as a 19° boat at 23kn all other things being equal.

so most people will choose to knock off a few knots in an unpleasant seaway and enjoy their space, style, comfort, resale or whatever else their own choices optimised for rather than choose to sell and buy an itama. After all it isn’t a race.