Why the Welly Centaur will be better and safer than a donkey Centaur

[michael_w]

Better have a good pair of walking boots and a sack barrow. Petrol is in short supply on the waterfront, especially in roughty toughty places.
Is it all a cunning plan to re create a modern version of a fireship?

 

[Storyline]

too busy fettling Volvos

D

 

[ghostlymoron]

Just noticed that 10 horsepower outboard weigh about 40 to 50 kilograms. How will you lift it into the well? And out again if you catch any lobster pots? I don't think you can fit a rope cutter to an outboard. I also wouldn't be happy carrying a large quantity of petrol. I think the practicality of this plan is becoming less obvious. However, I look forward to seeing the finished result

 

[aquaplane]

too busy fettling Volvos

D

I spend less time fettling my MD11C in the Centaur than I spent fetching petrol when we took the Trail Sailer to the Oban area.

The outboard was the right engine for the trail sailer, it was the wrong boat for the area. Maybe wrong boat for the area is a bit strong, it's easier in the Centaur with it's inboard.

 

[Iain C]

Come on Dylan, I've got 3/4 of the way through an entire rebuild of my Flying 15 on one thread, and that boat actually exists.

Like others, I suspect, I'm just tuning out of this whole episode now. It's starting to feel that when enough people on one thread tell you what a catastrophically bad idea hacking a hole in a Centaur is, you just start a new one.

Your enthusiasm is great but your laser focus on chopping holes in Centaurs seems misguided. If you want a boat that will take the rough weather up north, I'd be concentrating on the structural integrity of the hull and rig attachment points, the mast, new standing rigging, decent sails, electrics you can rely on, keels, a rudder that is not corroding internally or wobbling about, a good anchor, sail controls that work etc etc. The engine would be fairly near the bottom of that list, and if you find one with a smokey old Volvo then stick a pantograph bracket on the transom and an outboard on it just in case it dies on you...job done.

And why does it HAVE to be a centaur? There will be many boat bargains lying around in yards with people desperate to sell as winter approaches, most with perfectly reliable inboards. Because there's a reason why most 26 footers have diesels...

Sorry if this has already been covered in one of the many other threads...but I've just lost track.

Please, just one thread!

 

[sarabande]

"I can lose two cockpit drains"

I'm more and more concerned about your thinking of the structural integrity of this proposed change. Have you run it past an insurance company for their opinion ?

Dylan, this in an idée fixe which is running out of control. You are an experienced fettler of boats, but consistently users with more experience and with similar sized boats have said it's a daft idea. Sure, it MAY work, but for the sake of proving a weak point and selling an article to PBO, you are creating something which is akin to putting new wine into old bottles.

Please please take time out for a reality check and go back over the real reasons you want to do this daft modification. Yamahatsu are unlikely to be pleased if their product ends up on the front page of the Dundee Herald for the wrong reasons.


In fact, any probs with the o/b motor are likely to be minimal as it's new and proven. It's all the other dreadfully complex, interrelated, and unnecessary issues such as additional storage for petrol, lifting the motor, needing another o/b for the dinghy or spare, that make me scratch my head. You are not too far down the road to f*cking up a perfectly good, proven boat and propulsion system to turn back.

If you go ahead, it will make an interesting film, assuming the camera survives, as well as yourself.


Yours, sincerely, Gloomy of Exmoor.

 

[NealB]

I suspect that Dylan's motivation, really, is less about making rational choices, than about proving to the world what a delightfully interesting, free-thinking, and eccentric, chap he is.

The Scuttlebutt's answer to Patrick Moore or Heath Robinson, maybe?

Nothing wrong with that.....we can all enjoy the ride.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

A slow revving diesel running a 60amp alternator against a weedy half rectified un regulated outboard.

The sail drive outboards have sufficient electrical output for the type and size of boats they are intended to power - typically 6 to 12 A. If on a mains charger with an ammeter you watch the current taken by, for example 130 Ah of capacity as I have, it starts at about 10 A when the batteries are low, drops within a few minutes to 5, and then slowly decreases from that. I'm not sure why 60 A of charging capacity would be useful on a 26' boat with the battery capacity it is likely to have.

I have all the electrical consumers expected for a boat my size (30'), including compressor coolbox and autopilot, and with my outboard charging and my 30 W solar panel, have never run out of power in over a decade. This summer I spent a month in Scotland off grid.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Petrol is in short supply on the waterfront, especially in roughty toughty places.

My experience having a petrol powered boat is the opposite - in Scotland it is more difficult in the bigger towns to get petrol by the water than in the small places and islands. For example - Troon and Oban it is quite a walk. Islay, Colonsay, Jura, Ullapool, Scourie, Lochinver, Kinlochbervie - all close. With many of these small places with the demise of fishing you would end up getting diesel the same way anyway.

 

[dylanwinter]

My experience having a petrol powered boat is the opposite - in Scotland it is more difficult in the bigger towns to get petrol by the water than in the small places and islands. For example - Troon and Oban it is quite a walk. Islay, Colonsay, Jura, Ullapool, Scourie, Lochinver, Kinlochbervie - all close. With many of these small places with the demise of fishing you would end up getting diesel the same way anyway.

surely Mr McDoon you must have been completely mistaken

you could not have sailed around the Scottish coast in a 30 footer powered by such an engine when all the big diesel south coasters are telling you that such a thing is an impossibility and even to contemplate such a thing must be some sort of publicity stunt

your first hand experiences count as nothing when compared to the honest and carefully honed opinions of honourable men who say that to do such a thing is folly

As for removing the engine when I encounter a lobster pot

the engine weighs 41kg

the next size up weighs a whopping 56kg

http://www.tohatsu-uk.net/

I shall have my six foot three son with me to help remove the engine should that be necessary

also Salty John makes these http://www.saltyjohn.co.uk/motor_lift.htm

and the centaur has a very stout boom

so I have a plan B and C

with previous encounters with lobster pots and stray ropes plan B was to run the boat aground so that I can get to the prop

The well will obviously not make the Centaur shallow draft but I have discovered that the lobster pots are all clustered around the 20 to 30 foot contour - which is idea for filming the land and the coast.. The secret to getting decent shots of the shore-line is getting close to it

I have found that by following the lobster pots along the coast then I know that the water is deep enough to sail through

most useful for me as a cameraman - but too frightening to contemplate with an inboard without a cutter

gettng fuel is always a problem - I have a push bike on board most of the time - it is very useful for getting fuel

and in my experience there are as many petrol engines in the small harbours as diesel engines

the shift to four stroke has transformed the economics of running an outboard

Carrying a spare power unit in the form of the 6hp long shaft makes good sense to me - it will be safer aboard Welly Centaur than left in the cabin of Katie L - or even in my garage at home. The ballast will be most useful.

I am planning on storing the fuel in the stern locker - which drains over the side.

Of course if I cannot find the right boat at the right price then making this happen will be a bit of a challenge

so if you are overwintering in a yard in the South or the East and there is a centaur there that has not moved for a few years...

I am planning to go up to Anstruther for some sailing before Christmas so if anyone has any suggestions about boats worth looking at on the way up I would love to know about them

dylan.winter@virgin.net


Dylan

 

[AngusMcDoon]

but I would prefer to store 60 litres of diesel in a dedicated tank than 60 litres of petrol in portable tanks

Is having 60 litres of petrol on a boat in dedicated tanks and handled appropriately any more dangerous than 10 litres of LPG in a boat used for cooking? I would guess half of the people claiming the danger of petrol here have a gas system on board, and gas goes inside the boat too, whereas petrol does not.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

surely Mr McDoon you must have been completely mistaken...

Lets just say that if/when you get there in a petrol powered boat, I'll let you know where you can get petrol from without the use of walking boots and wheel barrows.

Also, if you follow shallow contours like you did darn sarf, you might find that you become intimate with something hard, unyielding, and uncharted. Better take some GRP. It's more normal to be able to get close in where it is charted as safe and deep (enough places like that for plenty of filming), and leave the shallows to the canoes.Here's a good example - awash rock lurking in the middle distance...

 

[chrisbitz]

Like others, I suspect, I'm just tuning out of this whole episode now. It's starting to feel that when enough people on one thread tell you what a catastrophically bad idea hacking a hole in a Centaur is, you just start a new one.

Please, just one thread!

I'm not sure of the concept around replying to a message saying your bored and asking it to stop.

To be honest, I find Dylan's posts interesting and informative. I like the multiple threads - they are related to different topics, so absolutely correct to start a new thread with a completely relevant title. The title gives it away - Don't open ones about the Centaur project! Sheesh, it's not hard,

I'm frankly surprised at the sheer number of people that are being purely negative. Assuming they don't know everything there is to know about structural design and hull modification of Centaurs, the sheer concept that *they might be wrong too* doesn't seem to cross their minds. Instead they spout* this flow of frankly, fairly unpleasant insults and rudeness, just because someone's genuinely thinking about doing something that they wouldn't / couldn't.

If you're not interested, unsubscribe, and don't feel the need to tell everyone that you're unsubscribing!


*spout, as in the fountain that one expert suggested might come out of Dylan's well!

 

[Salty John]

I like the principle of more threads, less posts per thread. When threads get to 6 or 7 pages long you start to see repetition simply because people don't go back to the beginning and read every previous post.

As for getting fed up with threads, just don't participate. Less engaging threads disappear more quickly than popular ones, it's surprisingly democratic.

 

[paul.norton]

This probably not change Dylan's mind but here's my take on the project.

As I understand it, yacht inboard engines rarely wear out - it is usually the ancillaries which corroded, seize up or short out.(Perhaps some of the experts on here can confirm that).

Dylan is proposing to spend £2k+ removing the donk and building an engine well. I'm sure that £2k would go a long way to refurbishing a small yacht diesel engine - particularly if Dylan himself provided most of the labour.

The advantage would be that he would become very familiar with the layout of the engine and therefore be more able to sort out future problems. When he was journeying with the slug, Dylan mentioned a couple of times the warmth that came from the engine on a cold evening - why give that up.

Dylan, find a boat with a fixable engine and when you have completed your circumnavigation you will have a valuable asset.

All the best.

Paul

 

[ghostlymoron]

Dylan, I think you're wrong about the lobster pots I've encountered them several miles offshore.

 

[dylanwinter]

This probably not change Dylan's mind but here's my take on the project.

As I understand it, yacht inboard engines rarely wear out - it is usually the ancillaries which corroded, seize up or short out.(Perhaps some of the experts on here can confirm that).

Dylan is proposing to spend £2k+ removing the donk and building an engine well. I'm sure that £2k would go a long way to refurbishing a small yacht diesel engine - particularly if Dylan himself provided most of the labour.

The advantage would be that he would become very familiar with the layout of the engine and therefore be more able to sort out future problems. When he was journeying with the slug, Dylan mentioned a couple of times the warmth that came from the engine on a cold evening - why give that up.

Dylan, find a boat with a fixable engine and when you have completed your circumnavigation you will have a valuable asset.

All the best.

Paul

thanks for your comments

The price of an old Centaur with a dead engine is around £2,000

the price of a Centaur with an engine "that can be seen running" is around £6,000

the price of a Centaur with a good engine is much closer to £8,000 or £10,000

I confess I loved the beast - and the heat was wonderful for winter sailing

I have been critcised for the failings of the beast based upon my poor maintenance

well.... in some ways clearly guilty as charged.

However, I did keep a 50 year old engine going for five years hundreds of miles away from my home base sailing thousands of miles and in commission right through the year

It is my guess that I did as much sailing and motoring in the five years with the slug and the beast as some of the most ardent and prolific forumites have done in two or three times as many years

what killed the Beast for me was the impossibility of getting spares

the gear linkages went

none available

the gearbox went - none available

the coupling went - none available

the engine mounts went - none available

the engine always started for me -- I kept her going so my maintenance cannot be that bad

all very well to be criticed for being a bad mechanic when actually I did okay

I have been following the MD11C thtread with interest

would you take such an engine around the North of Scotland?

I used to carry a boot full of tools aroun d with me just in case

now I have an outboard I have a tool kit no bigger than a handbag

I hardly ever touch them

I bung the outboard in the car and do the oil and spark plug changes in the comfort of the garage



The cost of the conversion will be low

a pack of jigsaw blades, some wood and a large plastic pipe

It really is a very simple concept - to cut a new tube in the cockpit of a boat




One of the reasons for going for a long shaft 9.8 hp engine is that there are lots of them about and they are cheapetr than the 15hp

people buy them as kickers for their bigger mobos apparently

so if I buy an engine I can sell it again for a decent price

I might even get some money by breaking the old Volvo I remove and selling it one bit at a time as spares - good winter project


So if anyone knows of an Centaur....#

dylan.winter@virgin.net

 

[Nicholas123]

1/the engine will start when I ask it to

2/The biggest risk to my motive power in Scotland is the lobster pot lines - I can laugh in their faces

3/I will be able to carry a spare engine

4/I can vector it

5/fewer holes in the boat - one simple hole as opposed to five

6/better films because I can come closer in shore

7/the price difference between Welly Centaur and donkey Centaur can be spent on more sailing

When you going to put your money where your mouth is Dylan? This is getting boring.

 

[flaming]

As you've said the plan is to sell it again when you've done with Scotland, I think you need to give a good think about what your proposed modification will do to both the resale value, and the ease of selling.

Since you wouldn't be selling the outboard with the boat, then any potential purchaser would have to source a new outboard. Added cost and hassle. Plus you're trying to sell a well known design that has been modified to an extent that would make putting it back to inboard would be difficult and expensive. Given the number of regular Centaurs around I can't imagine anyone taking on your castoff to do that to, so you've restricted yourself to a very small segment of the market that wants a centaur with an outboard. But doesn't come with one.

Realistically, is that going to sell? And what would it do to the value? You're talking about taking a boat that sells for £2k and turning it into a one off, seemingly largely DIY. I don't think you could then sell that as a Centaur, as it isn't. Go and have a look at the price of one off's if you think they're anything like the value of a well known make / model. And a boat that has been extensively owner modified, especially to the hull, would be a massive turn off for many.

My gut feeling is that you'd lose way more money trying to resell this boat than if you just took a bog standard centaur, added a rope cutter and maintained the Diesel. You could probably sell that for what you paid for it 1 or 2 years hence, they're pretty much done with the depreciation.

Of course, if getting hold of the upfront cash is an issue it may change the equation, but I think long term you'll lose a load more cash on this than you appreciate.

 

[dylanwinter]

As you've said the plan is to sell it again when you've done with Scotland, I think you need to give a good think about what your proposed modification will do to both the resale value, and the ease of selling.

Since you wouldn't be selling the outboard with the boat, then any potential purchaser would have to source a new outboard. Added cost and hassle. Plus you're trying to sell a well known design that has been modified to an extent that would make putting it back to inboard would be difficult and expensive. Given the number of regular Centaurs around I can't imagine anyone taking on your castoff to do that to, so you've restricted yourself to a very small segment of the market that wants a centaur with an outboard. But doesn't come with one.

Realistically, is that going to sell? And what would it do to the value? You're talking about taking a boat that sells for £2k and turning it into a one off, seemingly largely DIY. I don't think you could then sell that as a Centaur, as it isn't. Go and have a look at the price of one off's if you think they're anything like the value of a well known make / model. And a boat that has been extensively owner modified, especially to the hull, would be a massive turn off for many.

My gut feeling is that you'd lose way more money trying to resell this boat than if you just took a bog standard centaur, added a rope cutter and maintained the Diesel. You could probably sell that for what you paid for it 1 or 2 years hence, they're pretty much done with the depreciation.

Of course, if getting hold of the upfront cash is an issue it may change the equation, but I think long term you'll lose a load more cash on this than you appreciate.

Obviously if I had the odd eight or ten thousand hanging around then I would not be considering this option.

Of course I could borrow the money - but that way lies madness

I see the economics slightly differentlly

I buy a boat - value £2,000 - it is a non functioning scrapper because it does not have a functioning engine

I remove the engine and sell it for what I can get or bung it in the garage and break the old volvo for spares

- cost of that operation is some time and some petrol

I cut a hole in the hull and a second in the cocpit floor and join them with a section of 315 mm HDPE pipe and create a thrust plate/flase transom

- cost some time, some petrol and a sheet of ply (£50) and a length of 315 mm HDPE pipe (£60)

- Unguents from Wessex Resins - top price for those is (£150)

I am very very comfortable working with wood and resins - done lots of it. I know what is required.


Then there is the engine I can get one for £1700 or so - list price is £2,114

at the end of the year if I cannot sell the boat then I have lost £2,200 plus some labour and a few quids worth of bits

if it goes on ebay then so be it



if it works, as I beleive it will, then I can sell the boat for at least what I paid for it

there will be films to show what it will and will not do.


On the other hand I could borrow £8,000 for a Centau with an old(ish) engine

after taking it around scotland and rubbing it up against a few harbour walls I might be able to sell it for the same money I bought it for

on the other hand if the engine goes pop and it needs replacing in order to protect my investment I have to get that engine back into good enough nick to sell the boat with an engine that "can be seen working"

--------

as for those who are bored with Centaurs - well as soon as poeple stop responding to the threads then they will surely die leaving fascinating threads about apostrophes to take their rightful place at the top of the forum

I do not double post and I do not bump threads

- when will I put my money where my mouth is?

this project is only ten days old and no children or animals have been hurt

I have spent some garage trime with outboards and cardboard

but apart from that

only digits and some thought

still looking for the right boat

dylan.winter@virgin.net