Why the slow progress on hybrid engine systems?

[macd]

Mastervolt sells Li ion batteries. Vital stats. are:-
Capacity 5kWHrs; Weight 58 kg; price ~ £4.7k.
The spec. seems to advise discharging only to 20%, so at that, you might get about 4 hphrs at the prop. shaft.
Cf. a small outboard with a full tank.

£4.7k for a small outboard kind of puts it into perspective.
(It's worth acknowledging, though, that if you want to be fleeced on Lithium (actually LiFePo) battery prices, Mastervolt or Victron stickers will do it admirably. They're available for much less elsewhere.)

 

[JumbleDuck]

T Then consider that the typical annual engine usage of a yacht is equal to less than 4000 miles mixed driving of which maybe 10% is in and out of a berth then you realise how little value there is in the electric element hybrid power.

That's what you realise. Other people may come, legitimately, to different conclusions. Most round-Britain sailors seem to agree that they do about a quarter to a third of the miles under sail, so they should really buy motorboats.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Mastervolt sells Li ion batteries. Vital stats. are:-
Capacity 5kWHrs; Weight 58 kg; price ~ £4.7k.
The spec. seems to advise discharging only to 20%, so at that, you might get about 4 hphrs at the prop. shaft.
Cf. a small outboard with a full tank.

Yup, that's the sort of thing. Two of them and I could double the power of my engine for an hour.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

I looked into this extensively when putting a new engine into the last boat. I concluded that we are a long way away from early adopter stage which is the point I'd be happy to invest. It reflects the incredible conservatism of new yacht builders who build boats from the starting point of not wanting to frighten the horses. Each new model from Ben/Jen/Bav is just a tweak of the old model and the chances of leaving behind cheap and simple diesel and cheap and simple bermudan rig are negligible in the medium term. Until manufacturers can get a steady stream of newborns from the big builders they won't invest in the technology. Shame because we're left is an inefficient engine and an inefficient rig. Both work just well enough.

 

[earlybird]

Don't know about the rig, but I'd reckon that the thermal efficiency of a yacht diesel auxiliary could be quite high as these values go. Maybe upwards of 30% at a guess unless it's used on very low powers for lengthy periods.
Putting an electric generator/motor in the drive line would certainly reduce this figure compared with a mechanical gearbox.
If charged by mains, don't forget that a power station is only about 40%. The energy has to come from somewhere.
Or a v. big windmill would be required.

 

[teredo]

The "value" of hybrid power in cars is no more than an illusion created by marketing.

The huge extra cost of such a system makes it a very expensive means indeed of saving a few MPG, mileage that would stretch to tens of thousands over the life of the vehicle if spent on cheap petrol instead of hideously costly batteries.

Just like domestic photovoltaics or solar, it's a government scam to make the public stump up the capital cost of generating systems that cost vastly more, large multiples more than conventional power. Thus the govt retains the capital and the infrastructure is funded by the public at 3-5 times the going rate for efficient industrial scale systems.

Hybrid cars are a costly marketing-led guilt-driven fad.

= con...

 

[westernman]

I doubt any yacht would be able to fit enough solar panels to run for even 1 hour each day (even with a completely lossless battery charging system).

These guys managed it.

 

[Tranona]

That's what you realise. Other people may come, legitimately, to different conclusions. Most round-Britain sailors seem to agree that they do about a quarter to a third of the miles under sail, so they should really buy motorboats.

If you follow your line of argument hybrids or any form of electric propulsion is even less sensible for exactly the same reason that the majority of road applications have limited value in terms of range or continuous use.

Suggest (as I have done on a number of occasions) you read Nigel calder's reports on hybrids which will show even in continuous duty cycles hybrids (at least the one he had) was less efficient than straight diesel. That is without taking into account the high initial cost and space and weight penalties.

While the attraction of silent power is there it is simply not viable with today's technology and even the development of better storage does not alter that fact.

Fail to see how anybody can "legitimately" to a different conclusion much as they might like it to be the case.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you follow your line of argument hybrids or any form of electric propulsion is even less sensible for exactly the same reason that the majority of road applications have limited value in terms of range or continuous use.

When I follow my line of argument it leads somewhere quite different. Perhaps I just haven't been clear enough. Ah well.

Suggest (as I have done on a number of occasions) you read Nigel calder's reports on hybrids which will show even in continuous duty cycles hybrids (at least the one he had) was less efficient than straight diesel.

That would be relevant if efficiency was the issue, which it isn't. The cost of fuel for yacht auxiliaries is negligible.

While the attraction of silent power is there it is simply not viable with today's technology and even the development of better storage does not alter that fact.

It maybe wouldn't suit you. That's fine. Doesn't mean it is not viable and will never be viable for the rest of us.

Fail to see how anybody can "legitimately" to a different conclusion

That should probably be the adopted as the motto of The Lounge.

 

[GrahamM376]

These guys managed it.

So did these, saw the boat in Port America a few years ago -- http://www.transatlantic21.org/

 

[Tranona]

When I follow my line of argument it leads somewhere quite different. Perhaps I just haven't been clear enough. Ah well.


.

I have followed your line of argument and fail to see how a hybrid in its current form can meet your expectations. Why does it make sense to have two forms of propulsion for such limited use?

Don't have a problem with your "ideal" - even though that duty cycle is very limiting, but you seem to fall into the trap of working back from a desired outcome and suggesting that a particular arrangement can meet it when it clearly cannot. You seem to recognise this by quoting your dual power source of 5kw as your ideal but that is not currently feasible.

Pointless using your mate's electric powered boat as an exemplar as all that does is use a technology that has been around for over 100 years and never gained any acceptance for use as a sailboat auxiliary because of the well known limitations.

 

[Mistroma]

I have followed your line of argument and fail to see how a hybrid in its current form can meet your expectations. Why does it make sense to have two forms of propulsion for such limited use?

Don't have a problem with your "ideal" - even though that duty cycle is very limiting, but you seem to fall into the trap of working back from a desired outcome and suggesting that a particular arrangement can meet it when it clearly cannot. You seem to recognise this by quoting your dual power source of 5kw as your ideal but that is not currently feasible.

Pointless using your mate's electric powered boat as an exemplar as all that does is use a technology that has been around for over 100 years and never gained any acceptance for use as a sailboat auxiliary because of the well known limitations.

I have to agree with you Tranona.

You can build something capable of travelling day & night using electric power but need around 76m2 area for panels and about 2/3 tonne in lead acid batteres to cover night running (approx. 2,000 Ah @ 12V). It would need to be a cat. in order to get the required surface area and no mast & sails. Changing to high tech batteries only helps with weight, not power generation. Not cheap or practical.

Going for something more limited in scope still involves adding complexity, increased battery size and cost. Solar wouldn't come anywhere near to being a substitute for an internal combustion engine and you would need a hybrid system. I can't see many people buying such a hybrid system as it will always be more expensive than current diesel installations and require additional space.

Even limiting use to the odd 30 minutes berthing or boost at a headland would be expensive. I can't see it meeting anyone's real needs at a realistic price. Different if money is no object of course. But I can't see it catching on in leisure sailing as it isn't even particularly green.

 

[Tranona]

I have to agree with you Tranona.
I can't see many people buying such a hybrid system as it will always be more expensive than current diesel installations and require additional space.

Thinking a bit more about the problem, perhaps my negativity is because almost all the hybrid solutions are based on using existing diesel engines to both generate electricity and propulsion usually with the option of electric propulsion. This results in them being bulky heavy and expensive.

Going back to JD's expectation of a dual power 5kw power plant with the option of propulsion from either source, maybe if the dual power bit is dropped and electric only propulsion used as a starting point a different and probably more viable solution may be possible. This has already been tried with a permanent electric motor charged by a remote (that is not connected to the transmission) diesel engine. Downsides are packaging and complexity of controls to ensure the engine only runs on demand.

However if a petrol engine can be considered instead of a marine diesel and not used for propulsion but just electricity generation with all propulsion coming from an electric motor then a cheap and compact package might be possible. Can't think of any existing power packages that would meet this requirement so it would have to be designed specifically for yacht auxiliary applications (and overcome resistance to petrol on boats).

Can't see market demand leading to such a development so maybe just as in cars it will be regulation that will force consideration of radical alternatives rather than the half assed adaptations currently being offered.

 

[lw395]

It's quite possible to operate a small or even medium yacht with no engine at all.
Therefore, it is possible to use some sort of electric auxiliary drive if you are prepared to accept the limitations.

That doesn't mean there is a point to it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have followed your line of argument and fail to see how a hybrid in its current form can meet your expectations. Why does it make sense to have two forms of propulsion for such limited use?

I've explained that, in some detail.

You seem to recognise this by quoting your dual power source of 5kw as your ideal but that is not currently feasible.

Yes, that't what I said. I'm glad that bit got across ok.

Pointless using your mate's electric powered boat as an exemplar as all that does is use a technology that has been around for over 100 years and never gained any acceptance for use as a sailboat auxiliary because of the well known limitations.

Lynch motors, digital control and lithium-ion batteries have not been around for a hundred years. He seems very happy with the solution he has, so I shan't spoil it by telling him that he can't be.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

It's quite possible to operate a small or even medium yacht with no engine at all.
Therefore, it is possible to use some sort of electric auxiliary drive if you are prepared to accept the limitations.

That doesn't mean there is a point to it.

True, it's why you have the line "what do you call the owner of a motorsailer?" Answer - "honest" we all say we have sailing yachts but to be honest most of us have a motorsailor. I've had half a dozen cruising yachts and because of the number of times with a family we just have to get somewhere we don't use the motor on our Colvic Watson much more often than we did on the others. The difference is we never beat and tack to windward now - like never, most sailing yachts are much better at that. But I suspect that despite some forumites saying they go a whole season on two cups of diesel my experience for holiday sailors is pretty common, we all use the motor about 40% of the time, so we all need good ones. On a lazy Sunday sail it's much less, on a two week holiday it might be much more!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Going for something more limited in scope still involves adding complexity, increased battery size and cost. Solar wouldn't come anywhere near to being a substitute for an internal combustion engine and you would need a hybrid system. I can't see many people buying such a hybrid system as it will always be more expensive than current diesel installations and require additional space.

Economical arguments have very little relevance in the leisure boating world. People buy new boats, for crying out loud.

For the avoidance of doubt, much points are that (a) small marine hybrid systems are not currently viable but that (b) as battery technology continues to improve that may change as long as (c) the core diesel-electric technology is developed for a different and bigger market in which case (d) the marinised version might suit some, but not all people.

I do not fall into the trap of thinking that everyone else's requirements and preferences are identical to my own.

 

[Mistroma]

Economical arguments have very little relevance in the leisure boating world. People buy new boats, for crying out loud.

For the avoidance of doubt, much points are that (a) small marine hybrid systems are not currently viable but that (b) as battery technology continues to improve that may change as long as (c) the core diesel-electric technology is developed for a different and bigger market in which case (d) the marinised version might suit some, but not all people.

I do not fall into the trap of thinking that everyone else's requirements and preferences are identical to my own.

Economic arguments must have some impact. Given the choice of spending a million or £100,000 on very similar boats the majority choose the latter. As price difference reduces then more people are able to afford the more expensive boat in order to gain desired features (or just kudos).

I was trying to say that there are technical reason preventing Solar from being viable as a sole power source. Theoretical limitations won't change. Even making the entire hull into a solar collector wouldn't be sufficient for mono-hulls and multi-hulls would still be marginal. So some sort of hybrid option would be required.

I really doubt that a hybrid electric/diesel solution will be economically attractive for yachts in the foreseeable future. Diesel engines will remain the most viable solution unless some regulator change takes place. But I would not expect pollution reduction to be huge for hybrid vs diesel. It is still a diesel system with more complexity and a small efficiency improvement (if any) and additional shore based pollution from manufacturing. I don't believe that battery improvements will alter the situation significantly for 5-10 years as they aren't the only problem.

I don't think that I was comparing my requirements to those of others. Simply making generalisations about cost, complexity and the size of the likely market.

You may well be happy to spend a lot of money on a system with more limitations than a standard diesel and I'm certain you won't be completely alone. My point is that you won't be in the majority (by a long way) and most boat builders aim to supply the mass market. Not saying hybrids won't ever make sense, just that I won't be expecting most people I know to buy one over a reasonable time frame.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Economical arguments have very little relevance in the leisure boating world. People buy new boats, for crying out loud.

Tosh and piffle. Economics are king - that's why production builders account for 90% of sales and relentlessly drive down costs so that buyers get more for their money or spend less, it's all about the money, that's why there's no real innovation.

 

[earlybird]

.
However if a petrol engine can be considered instead of a marine diesel and not used for propulsion but just electricity generation with all propulsion coming from an electric motor then a cheap and compact package might be possible. Can't think of any existing power packages that would meet this requirement so it would have to be designed specifically for yacht auxiliary applications (and overcome resistance to petrol on boats).

Can't see market demand leading to such a development so maybe just as in cars it will be regulation that will force consideration of radical alternatives rather than the half assed adaptations currently being offered.

I would expect that a lightweight petrol engined package would pose a considerable downside from the fuel consumption point of view.
Apart from the inherently greater consumption compared with diesel, there are also the energy conversion (and storage?) inefficiencies.
Granted, annual fuel cost for yachts isn't usually a significant consideration, but endurance is. My 60 l. diesel tank gives ~40 hours running.
This would be much less for petrol electric,( maybe a factor of 2). I suppose I could shoehorn in a bigger tank, but bang goes my carbon footprint, and my light weight!
Incidentally, the Calmac Bute ferries have a central motor generator with an electric drive at each corner, no shafts.