Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
For some reason loads of the bigger boats are
Why not to buy a 54m yacht
- Thread starter MapisM
- Start date
For some reason loads of the bigger boats are
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Do the professional crews on these large boats not carry something similar pre-flight checks where every control is tested before weighing anchor or leaving a berth?
SnaxMuppet
Well-Known Member
I do wish people wouldn't jump to conclusions when there is no evidence to indicate what happened. Crews of yachts like that are normally experienced professionals and not idiots. I am not saying it couldn't happen but it is highly unlikely that a professional skipper would do that deliberately or out of incompetence. The harbour master seems satisfied there was a gearbox failure and so all those saying it was arrogance or incompetence should be eating humble pie right now.
... and what is all this bickering about taglines... pathetic!
... and what is all this bickering about taglines... pathetic!
jfm
Well-Known Member
Very odd. Being stuck in reverse gear would explain what we can see in the video, but it totally doesn't explain how the yacht got into her position in the opening frame of the video. That position was totally wrong for exiting portofino, so something had gone badly wrong before that video even started, and it was something other than being jammed in reverse gear. More to this than meets the video eye or the press release
That boat had a rather famous first owner, who sold her c.10 years ago. I have no idea who owns her now but it's someone with an optimistic outlook on asking prices
.
That boat had a rather famous first owner, who sold her c.10 years ago. I have no idea who owns her now but it's someone with an optimistic outlook on asking prices
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
Blimey, I can't remember to have ever read a post with such a concentration of nonsense.
1) no evidence of what happened: you must be joking. The video indicates exactly WHAT happened - it's just the WHY that as of now is still uncertain.
2) experienced professionals = not idiots: yeah, right. As if there were no idiots on this planet in command of much larger cruise ships - not to mention some which are leading entire Countries...
3) harbour master "satisfied": WTF make you think so? The fact that some websites report a gearbox failure as something mentioned by "a spokesman for the harbour master"? So much for wishing that people wouldn't jump to conclusions!
Incidentally, FYI, in IT harbour masters are neither supposed nor entitled to investigate (not to mention evaluate!) accidents - only the Coast Guard is.
jfm
Well-Known Member
+1
Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
+2
SnaxMuppet
Well-Known Member
I know the result of what happened... we don't know the cause.
I said "most" experienced professionals.
Your third point is valid... no one... probably not even the harbour master or even the skipper, knows for certain what happened... but the report was that the harbour master said it was gearbox failure. If that is not the case then it is the harbour master jumping to conclusions... not me... I just accepted what was reported... a BIG difference.
Anyway... no point in arguing with those that have made up their mind who was at fault.
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
They normally reverse in and moor here .Or if small enough turn in the "L" after coming in bow 1st .
18 June pic --- small boats where it ,s been vid ed are top L of the large dark super yacht ,s bow
So a gearbox malfunction shortly after leaving ( no anchor involvement ) 1 or 2 boat lengths a touch of R on one leading to a stuck in R ---- most likely the Stb lead to the spin .
Dought there was much time before it started to not respond and it actually turning it to think diagnose the prob .
Looks like they ,I would say skill fully managed to occupie as much water as possible as it turned , in the vid .
Compliments from me not ridicule -put yourself in the crew s position .
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jrudge
Well-Known Member
The challenge of course is that when shit happens it tends to happen quickly.
The aviation industry is full of reports that spend 6 months or more analysing the crews reactions when they had moments to make the decision as to what to do next.
People learn from reading the report and maybe, just maybe remember what happened should they be faced with the same issue.
The only strange thing about "gearbox failure" is that another post reported it then head off on its journey. To me this makes such a failure relatively unlikely as had it done something un-commanded one assumes they would have docked it and get the control company in to fix it before risking heading elsewhere ( i certainly would have!).
My first boat went into reverse once on the thames. I was look at the boat behind wondering why he was heading forward. I was heading backwards. The throttles needed recalibrating, but t was not immediately obvious to me what had happened as the throttles were in neutral .
The aviation industry is full of reports that spend 6 months or more analysing the crews reactions when they had moments to make the decision as to what to do next.
People learn from reading the report and maybe, just maybe remember what happened should they be faced with the same issue.
The only strange thing about "gearbox failure" is that another post reported it then head off on its journey. To me this makes such a failure relatively unlikely as had it done something un-commanded one assumes they would have docked it and get the control company in to fix it before risking heading elsewhere ( i certainly would have!).
My first boat went into reverse once on the thames. I was look at the boat behind wondering why he was heading forward. I was heading backwards. The throttles needed recalibrating, but t was not immediately obvious to me what had happened as the throttles were in neutral .
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Well, nope, actually you didn't. "Crews of yachts like that are normally experienced professionals and not idiots" is what you wrote.
Now, I would never pretend to teach semantic in my own language, let alone another.
But the way I read your statement is along the lines of "...are normally experienced professionals, and [experienced professionals are] not idiots." Hence my "experienced professionals = not idiots" summary.
Not that I wish to engage in further interpretations, mind - but just to clarify my understanding of what you wrote.
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
Hang on L, waddumean no anchor involvement?
A vessel of that size has no other choice than dropping the hook in PF, before reversing to the dock.
In fact, considering the sideways position at the beginning of the video, anchor weighing is what made me guess that something went wrong with that well before, and possibly has also something to see with the final mess.
If it weren't for anchor weighing, leaving PF even for a vessel as large as the dark one in your pic would be easy peasy, with zero need to ever engage reverse.
Though it has to be said that berthing is even more tricky for big vessels - possibly needing to drop two anchors.
If they handled that smoothly upon arrival, they are unlikely to be total idiots after all...
MapisM
Well-Known Member
VERY good point, J.
Coming to think of it, I wonder how happily their insurers would have been to refund a possibly much bigger damage, if that would have happened right after this event and for the same reason... :ambivalence:
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Hang on L, waddumean no anchor involvement?
A vessel of that size has no other choice than dropping the hook in PF, before reversing to the dock.
In fact, considering the sideways position at the beginning of the video, anchor weighing is what made me guess that something went wrong with that well before, and possibly has also something to see with the final mess.
If it weren't for anchor weighing, leaving PF even for a vessel as large as the dark one in your pic would be easy peasy, with zero need to ever engage reverse.
Though it has to be said that berthing is even more tricky for big vessels - possibly needing to drop two anchors.
If they handled that smoothly upon arrival, they are unlikely to be total idiots after all...
Reverse is used manoeuvreing in tight places
To slow it
And to turn it .
Clicking in and out of F and R only .
Not usuing the rudder /steering .
First click for me is 7.5 knots -- far too fast to rudder steer in a harbour /marina /dock environment-- so using gear box s constantly ,with rudder set straight .
Agree an anchor may have not come up as expected ,but that's easy to stay on station or reverse a little IF both gear boxes were functional .
Regarding it carried on , well as I said we have no diagnosis of the precise g box fault .
I understand it's in Genoa right now or just been .Thats an odd place to go ( with 8 guests ) unless dumping them @ airport ? But a great place for repairs /engineers .
With foresight and a dodggy gearbox you can radio ahead and ask for planned assistance docking .
Some gearboxes like Twin disc have a "get you home " manual forward only engage ment . This takes time to do -hands on with spanners etc .You can lock it F
Better than a box of neutrals but obviously you gonna need help docking @ destination .
Not saying its got Twin disc,s just very surprised if a vessel of that calibre has not got manual override g boxes .
hydraulic failure leads to low pressure and stuck in neutral .
You will not spin ,but gauges on the dash should show Gbox oil pressure ( my boat does ) and alarms
Just because it left PF does not necessarily mean it was not a malfunction on one gearbox stuck in R -shutting that engine down after a bit of "thinking time "
There s probably a manual way ,ie a person with a spanner -to change gear if the control malfunctions -there is on my boat .
But think about it -send a bloke into the ER , show him which bolt to turn , set up a communication system - its spun in 30 seconds .
But out at sea plenty of time to practice or just call for assistance next time in port ?
So I don,t envisage a 2nd time crash bang wollup session for the insurers to content with .
Also if there is a hydraulic failure and a box of neutrals with Twin disc -agian with a spanner you can lock if F -to get you home .Or fix the leak and top it up .
I see no reason to dought G box issue --they are rare -and take time to diagnose and sort - it's an old tub now,but subject to regular surveys normally if chartering .
The depth and level depend on the Flag .
London ? Hmm red duster -it's a complicated area .
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D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Do you really think that a professional skipper would deliberately crash into other boats if he didnt have some kind of major mechanical failure? You can see the RIBs trying to push her which surely must indicate even to you that the boat had lost propulsion in some way. Having experienced an engine stuck in gear myself in a crowded anchorage, very fortunately without damaging any other boats, the skipper of this boat has my sympathy
SnaxMuppet
Well-Known Member
Well, nope, actually you didn't. "Crews of yachts like that are normally experienced professionals and not idiots" is what you wrote.
Now, I would never pretend to teach semantic in my own language, let alone another.
But the way I read your statement is along the lines of "...are normally experienced professionals, and [experienced professionals are] not idiots." Hence my "experienced professionals = not idiots" summary.
Not that I wish to engage in further interpretations, mind - but just to clarify my understanding of what you wrote.
When in glasshouses you really shouldn't throw stones...
You are right... I did say "Crews of yachts like that are normally experienced professionals and not idiots" and if you are an native English speaker and are as clever at semantics as you suggest then you would have seen, and hopefully noticed, the word "normally" stuck in the middle there and if you didn't I have highlighted it for you just to help. "Normally", in that context, suggests that it is "normal" for crews to be experienced professionals and not idiots... i.e. it is the norm but there could be exceptions to the norm... being the norm it then indicates that most are experienced professionals and not idiots as it is the norm. QED.
Perhaps you think it better I said "Crews of yachts like that are normally experienced professionals and normally not idiots" ... ? Well the extra normal is not necessary IMO... except to pedants and those desperately wanting to get one over on someone else to win some kind of argument.
I do hate it when people are so determined to win an argument that they start to pick your language apart in order to find support for their position. It is usually because their own argument is so weak that they have to start to find support some how... some people start to resort to insult... some start to pick apart the language to try to find support in the semantics. To me, if you have to resort to picking language apart then you have lost all credibility. But why try to pick arguments? This is meant to be a friendly forum about our hobby... why turn it into a fighting ring... especially when your argument is weak! No one is interested in "you said that" discussions... like this one!!!!!
I have made my point so no point in discussing further
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Phildorset
Well-Known Member
cripes guys! some people are touchy!?
it's interesting to discuss what might have occurred - but is it necessary to score points?
it's interesting to discuss what might have occurred - but is it necessary to score points?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with this .I do hate it when people are so determined to win an argument that they start to pick your language apart in order to find support for their position. It is usually because their own argument is so weak that they have to start to find support some how... some people start to resort to insult... some start to pick apart the language to try to find support in the semantics. To me, if you have to resort to picking language apart then you have lost all credibility. But why try to pick arguments? This is meant to be a friendly forum about our hobby... why turn it into a fighting ring... especially when your argument is weak! No one is interested in "you said that" discussions... like this one!!!!!
It's happens far too much on here ,rarther than folllow on expanding they do exactley as you say .Ive been called all sorts of inappropriate things just not relivant to the thread at all .
This is nothing personal to any body on this thread ,just look at a thread I posted a few months ago on " hull shape how aware are you " --as an example .
But there are many others ( where I have not participated ) -threads that end up sounding exactley how you describe above ,the "boaty " bit is lost admist a row .
Back to the thread
I don,t see any reason to dought some sort of mech , most likely G box issue .
These things happen but here it's on a bigger scale on a big stage .
Boat is 840 tons so crew by law ( I think -but happy to be politely corrected ?) will be fully qualified and guessing experianced based on the bigger boats tend to pay senior crew more in a suedo pecking order of responsibility and career progression
As I said they did very well to keep it the most water /space -untill they regained control
They had a few split seconds or so -thus a decision to aim for the sea or go back .
Going back -returning to the dock -that dock if it's experiencing G box issues would be the worst of the two bad choices .
As you can see on the vid the Capitaneries ribs are going hell for leather ,outboards masking the actual prop wash of the boat -I suspect .
Cheery
Well-Known Member
Anyway, to lighten the mood of some on here, this is the video of 'the dark boat' in the picture above. Not too shabby. I do like this guy doing the presentation, although he would make me wary of having him around SWMBO or any female guests. 
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Great to hear that, because based on the point you made I couldn't agree more with your conclusion...
Fair winds!