Why is Ocean Theory so Expensive?

[Paddy Layback]

Could they not add a bit of astro to the syllabus of that one? I presume the OP is looking for a means of deciding which direction is next for him if his GPS goes down Mid Atlantic.

Thanks lpdsn, yes I am, for planned Atlantic circuit... and also I fondly imagined it would be an enjoyable craft skill, to be dabbled in when the fancy took me, like my ham radio cert...it's not so simple though

This thread is ram-packed with fascinating replies which I havent had time to study yet, thanks to all!

I'll probably cough up half a grand to do the Ocean Theory, seems to be the way you have to go.

Is there a pass certificate to hang on the wall?
And does anyone ever actually fail Ocean Theory? Or is it one of those courses where paying guarantees a pass, like basic 1st aid etc?

The RYA website is oddly silent on this matter

 

[KellysEye]

>However, you wasted words saying all you needed to know was how to sail a dinghy or do a few charters. Both dismissive and irrelevant at the same time so not worth posting.

I wasn't going to answer that but because it is so wrong I changed my mind. Just as there are astro books there are learn to sail, navigate and ocean sailing books, including RYA courses. Which as astro you seem not to know about. You will find a range of them here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...hvtargid=kwd-445214949&ref=pd_sl_4ragm38xss_b

We bought two of them and thus didn't need to spend money on RYA courses. Then as a I said the best route is dinghy sailing, then chartering yachts and then long distance sailing if you want to.

 

[Fascadale]

Not all Ocean Theory courses are c.£0.5K

I did mine at Port Edgar http://portedgarwatersports.com/activities/shore-based-courses/navigation-courses/. About £250.

I liked the description of astronav as a "Craft Skill". Very accurate. I quite enjoy being to a small degree part of a very long tradition of navigators who have used a wide range of information and methods to determine their position. It is also very satisfying that by manipulating images of heavenly bodies and doing a bit of arcane maths you can get an idea of where you are. I'm very pleased that I went to the effort of learning how to do it.

I take the sextant and tables with me when I go offshore but I have never used them "in anger", not even on a 5,000nms voyage across the Pacific last year. Plenty of GPSs, plenty of spare batteries, generator, solar, lightning protection etc.

 

[laika]

We bought two of them and thus didn't need to spend money on RYA courses. Then as a I said the best route is dinghy sailing, then chartering yachts and then long distance sailing if you want to.

I believe a misunderstanding may have arisen because back in post #20 you said:

as we found if you can sail a dinghy you can do any type of sailing.

There was no mention of studying books as you mentioned later and it was, I hope you'll agree, understandable to take you at your word that the ability to sail a dinghy is all you need to sail round the world.

Obviously there are plenty of people who have undertaken long journeys with minimal knowledge, survived and learned on the way. YBW recently featured some on their web site:
http://www.ybw.com/features/crazy-voyages-sailors-without-sailing-experience-47922

Some people adopt a strategy of not worrying about what they don't know and if something bites them but doesn't kill them, they learn. Perhaps this is your strategy and you've leaned as you've gone along as things have gone wrong.

Others like me and, I suppose, the OP, want to cover off as many of the "known unknowns" as possible even though that may result in learning stuff which is rarely used and is no guarantee of being safe.

I suppose a question is whether things like lifecycle of a TRS and great circle sailing are covered by the average "learn to sail" book (as I doubt these are really required topics for dinghy sailing), whether you're saying to the OP that such things have little practical value, or whether there was other stuff you studied that you omitted to mention.

 

[alant]

Thanks lpdsn, yes I am, for planned Atlantic circuit... and also I fondly imagined it would be an enjoyable craft skill, to be dabbled in when the fancy took me, like my ham radio cert...it's not so simple though

This thread is ram-packed with fascinating replies which I havent had time to study yet, thanks to all!

I'll probably cough up half a grand to do the Ocean Theory, seems to be the way you have to go.

Is there a pass certificate to hang on the wall?
And does anyone ever actually fail Ocean Theory? Or is it one of those courses where paying guarantees a pass, like basic 1st aid etc?

The RYA website is oddly silent on this matter

There is a certificate, which is useful when you submit sights & do your 'oral' with an examiner.
Yes, people can 'fail', but most instructors will endeavour to give extra help to anyone struggling. A recipe/proforma usually helps. Also always worth checking if anyone has number or word blindness before course starts.

 

[dom]

I'll probably cough up half a grand to do the Ocean Theory, seems to be the way you have to go.

Is there a pass certificate to hang on the wall?
And does anyone ever actually fail Ocean Theory? Or is it one of those courses where paying guarantees a pass, like basic 1st aid etc?

The RYA website is oddly silent on this matter

No need to worry here: the maths is nothing beyond primary school arithmetic. And I don't mean that in any derogatory sense, just in bygone days the kids trained to employ these techniques were only modestly educated.

In parallel to this, as Mr Duck points out the pure maths of a spherical structure (as opposed to astro arithmetic) is more complicated, although even here the conceptual bit is not at all hard. Solving the equations from scratch however requires some quite technical maths stuff.

In short you can confidently expect to understand asto conceptually and also how to do the arithmetic at sea and to use the sextant as designed. This may however be best achieved using a two pronged approach. A good RYA instructor may not -- dare I say it will probably not -- be able to explain the concepts well, but WILL be able to explain the arithmetic/equipment side of it very well. In parallel you can always read some books and/or come on here of an evening and I'm sure the mathsy folk will be delighted to help out with the conceptual/maths side. Then you can go to bed with a headcahe Good luck!

 

[alant]

No need to worry here: the maths is nothing beyond primary school arithmetic. And I don't mean that in any derogatory sense, just in bygone days the kids trained to employ these techniques were only modestly educated.

In parallel to this, as Mr Duck points out the pure maths of a spherical structure (as opposed to astro arithmetic) is more complicated, although even here the conceptual bit is not at all hard. Solving the equations from scratch however requires some quite technical maths stuff.

In short you can confidently expect to understand asto conceptually and also how to do the arithmetic at sea and to use the sextant as designed. This may however be best achieved using a two pronged approach. A good RYA instructor may not -- dare I say it will probably not -- be able to explain the concepts well, but WILL be able to explain the arithmetic/equipment side of it very well. In parallel you can always read some books and/or come on here of an evening and I'm sure the mathsy folk will be delighted to help out with the conceptual/maths side. Then you can go to bed with a headcahe Good luck!

A "good RYA instructor" has an outline syllabus, based upon getting people to get used to finding the relevant information required to take & reduce a sight. Deep understanding, for many (most) would eat into any time being used to figure things out.. Even basic arithmetic itself seems to task many, particularly those who are used to using an app for everything.

 

[Tranona]

However, you wasted words saying all you needed to know was how to sail a dinghy or do a few charters. Both dismissive and irrelevant at the same time so> not worth posting.

I wasn't going to answer that but because it is so wrong I changed my mind. Just as there are astro books there are learn to sail, navigate and ocean sailing books, including RYA courses. Which as astro you seem not to know about. You will find a range of them here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...hvtargid=kwd-445214949&ref=pd_sl_4ragm38xss_b

We bought two of them and thus didn't need to spend money on RYA courses. Then as a I said the best route is dinghy sailing, then chartering yachts and then long distance sailing if you want to.

I know all about the books and different ways of learning. Not surprising given I was an academic in university for 25 years. Have both the books and did the Ocean theory course many, many years ago. However never had the opportunity to put it to serious use though.

Your last paragraph is simply wrong as a generalisation for exactly the reason explained above. It worked for you, but does not necessarily describe how others have been equally successful.

Perhaps you should keep a more open mind and not be so dogmatic about what is "best", as there is no such thing as a universal best.

 

[Tranona]

I believe a misunderstanding may have arisen because back in post #20 you said:



There was no mention of studying books as you mentioned later and it was, I hope you'll agree, understandable to take you at your word that the ability to sail a dinghy is all you need to sail round the world.

Obviously there are plenty of people who have undertaken long journeys with minimal knowledge, survived and learned on the way. YBW recently featured some on their web site:
http://www.ybw.com/features/crazy-voyages-sailors-without-sailing-experience-47922

Some people adopt a strategy of not worrying about what they don't know and if something bites them but doesn't kill them, they learn. Perhaps this is your strategy and you've leaned as you've gone along as things have gone wrong.

Others like me and, I suppose, the OP, want to cover off as many of the "known unknowns" as possible even though that may result in learning stuff which is rarely used and is no guarantee of being safe.

I suppose a question is whether things like lifecycle of a TRS and great circle sailing are covered by the average "learn to sail" book (as I doubt these are really required topics for dinghy sailing), whether you're saying to the OP that such things have little practical value, or whether there was other stuff you studied that you omitted to mention.

+1