Why is Ocean Theory so Expensive?

lw395 said:
You must be the only person I know of who has Galileo and not Glonass.
I have a glonass-ony receiver in my collection.
Lots of receivers do Glonass these days to get type approval in Russia, even if they tend to use GPS as a preference in normal use.
I don't think it really counts as a true back up, as the things that will most likely knock out the average yacht's GPSs will take out Glonass too.
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The Matsutec HP-33A does Galileo but not Glonass, but of course Galileo is designed to work with GPS and Glonass isn't.

Whether it's a backup depends on whether GPS becomes unavailable because President donald:of the family:trump turns it off to bomb North Korea (Galileo OK) because a solar storm fries everything in orbit (Galileo stuffed too) or because lightning hits your boat (ditto).

Apologies for the earlier snippiness.
 
KellysEye said:
>You are still missing the point. This is NOT about whether it is necessary to be proficient in astro to sail long distance, but about the cost and suitability of courses.

I didn't mentiomn Astro never said anybody need to be proficient in Astro but we did carry a sextant and used it for fun and time wasting on long passages.

>As you do not seem to know how to do it, nor have been on an RYA course, why did you bother to post anything?

I posted it because you don't need to go on RYA courses as Jane and I have proved.

>You have only done what thousands of others have done, so why bother posting as it is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Can you name the thousands and what I posted isn't irevelant it is factual information what we did.
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What you (and thousands of others who sail offshore without knowing how to get a position from the sun or stars) is irrelevant to the OPs question which was about the cost and effectiveness of courses designed to teach astro navigation as part of YM Ocean.

As you have not done a course and do not know how to get a fix by sun and stars, what you posted was irrelevant. Not questioning what you did - which is unremarkable anyway, just why you bothered to post it.

Why do you have so much difficulty in understanding such a basic point?
 
I've been giving the original question some thought and suspect the more specialist the course the smaller the marked and hence the price goes up.

Think of the number of boat owners who never anchor, never sail at night and never cross oceans.
 
Sandy said:
I've been giving the original question some thought and suspect the more specialist the course the smaller the marked and hence the price goes up.

Think of the number of boat owners who never anchor, never sail at night and never cross oceans.
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Correct.
Other than pro sailors, few that bother are (1) sailing anoraks,(2)those anticipating sailing south until the butter melts in their newly purchased proper yot, mid life crisis types,(3) the Spanish evening class is full & they have already done macrame, (4) bored/retired breton cap clad "sailors", who spend the week between classes, thinking up obscure/difficult questions for the instructor.
Back to the OP, don't forget, that there are 2 types of Ocean course, one spread over 40 hours from autumn to spring, evening classes, with the pro sailor courses being more intense & done usually over 5 days.
 
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Tranona said:
What you (and thousands of others who sail offshore without knowing how to get a position from the sun or stars) is irrelevant to the OPs question which was about the cost and effectiveness of courses designed to teach astro navigation as part of YM Ocean.

As you have not done a course and do not know how to get a fix by sun and stars, what you posted was irrelevant. Not questioning what you did - which is unremarkable anyway, just why you bothered to post it.
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I can't see why you are being so snotty and demeaning. Is there a back story which would explain it?

That said. the issue of whether astronavigation is still essential or worthwhile for long distance yachting is certainly germane, if indirectly, to the original question, because reduced demand may well affecting prices.

It's also an interesting question to which the thread has naturally drifted.
 
>As you have not done a course and do not know how to get a fix by sun and stars, what you posted was irrelevant.

You don't need to do an Astro course just buy Mary Blewitt's Astro book, the RYA also has one. The best fix I got was 5 degrees out and up to 10 degreees which I have posted elsewhere and clearly you haven't read it. Do keep up with other posts.
 
KellysEye said:
You don't need to do an Astro course just buy Mary Blewitt's Astro book, the RYA also has one. The best fix I got was 5 degrees out and up to 10 degreees which I have posted elsewhere and clearly you haven't read it. Do keep up with other posts.
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....the most compelling reason yet to sign up for a good course ;)
 
alant said:
Other than pro sailors, few that bother are (1) sailing anoraks,(2)those anticipating sailing south until the butter melts in their newly purchased proper yot, mid life crisis types,(3) the Spanish evening class is full & they have already done macrame, (4) bored/retired breton cap clad "sailors", who spend the week between classes, thinking up obscure/difficult questions for the instructor.
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You seem to have some contempt for your customers who aren't professional sailors, especially the ones who ask difficult questions.

If the only "worthwhile" people doing the course are those doing it for a ticket does this mean you think that (a) there's no practically worthwhile content or (b) there is practically worthwhile content but you might just as well learn it from a book (because the instructor won't take kindly to difficult/obscure questions anyway?)
 
Paddy Layback said:
I am keen to do my Ocean Theory, but the prices are absurd surely? £450 for 5 "days", each 'day' is pro......
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There used to be a web of institutions called, loosely, Adult Education Centres, which supplied a range of short courses which people actually wanted to do for fun and enlightenment. You would have paid about 200 quid for your course one night a week over the academic year or autumn and spring terms. This is the best way to learn and meet people. Your quasi independent centre would not have to show a profit as long as the provision came in within budget overall, hence the pricing.

Now we are modern this has largely been dismantled, though you have lots of opportunities to do yoga and crystal healing.
In Romsey you can choose form four different courses to get you worked up enough to apply for a job, plus classes in how to cope with difficult transitions in your life and another assisting you to "decide which direction is next for you". There is loads more of the same but not much of substance unless you are interested in tatting or sugarcraft.
Yately offer 7 different dancing courses (so Jumbleduck is catered for), Creative Writing, Mindfulness, Indian Head Massage and Family Archery but nowt for the unreconstructed.

I did find one blokeish course:
"Men's Shed in Fareham
Men's Sheds provide a place where people, especially men, can share time, ideas and activities."

I'd be wary, sounds a bit like a gay sauna to me.

Sod it - all blokes really want is metalwork, woodwork and stuff like Yachtmaster Offshore

Having ranted, I must say that under £100 a day does sounds about right for a commercial set up but, personally, if I could not do it as an evening class, I would not do it at all. As you imply the 450 quid would buy a lot of beer and a cheap sextant.
 
JumbleDuck said:
From his comments about not being able to teach it in the the time suggested,
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Not sure that that's fair: My earlier references to RYA/MCA courses being 7 hours a day or less (nobody pays me for lunch and "breaks" so I don't count that as "work") weren't suggesting that that was a good thing. If an instructor gives more detail or individually helps out more students in a class putting in extra time I wouldn't be complaining.

The last course I did (medical first aid on board ship at warsash ) was the worst time-wise: with long lunches, long breaks, late starts and early finishes it barely touched 6 hours a day. The role-play element was very valuable and more exercises would have been beneficial. I was the only one self-funding. All the "professional sailors" were more than happy to get the certificate and get out of there.

Edit: hmm.. Maybe that's the point. Many "professional sailors" don't ask questions because they just want a certificate. It's the ones who've paid money to learn who're awkward in wanting VFM...
 
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doug748 said:
There used to be a web of institutions called, loosely, Adult Education Centres, which supplied a range of short courses which people actually wanted to do for fun and enlightenment. You would have paid about 200 quid for your course one night a week over the academic year or autumn and spring terms. This is the best way to learn and meet people. Your quasi independent centre would not have to show a profit as long as the provision came in within budget overall, hence the pricing.
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You can blame the Tories for that one. In the early nineties they decided that adult education courses could no longer be subsidised unless they were taught by qualified teachers and led to a qualification. So poor old Pam who had been teaching flower arranging in the town hall for twenty years was out of a job unless she qualified as a teacher and her pupils now had to get some points (1 point is about ten hours' study and full time HE is 120 points a year) in an accredited examination instead of putting together a display.

The result was to increase enormously the cost and complexity of putting on evening classes. Yachtmaster Instructors could no longer teach Day Skipper theory unless they were qualified teachers as well, which for many or most meant something like C&G 7307A "Teaching Adults in Further and Higher Education". An excellent course, which I did myself, but a fair commitment of time.

So ... apologies for the long post ... evening classes after that either had to be run as formal education on a commercial basis (no cut price room hire) which made an awful lot of hobby courses, like navigation and flower arranging, simply unviable.

laika said:
Edit: hmm.. Maybe that's the point. Many "professional sailors" don't ask questions because they just want a certificate. It's the ones who've paid money to learn who're awkward in wanting VFM...
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Yes, that's a good point. Perhaps someone who knows how to do the calculations but doesn't really understand how they work is happier with certificate-seekers than with knowledge-seekers.
 
laika said:
You seem to have some contempt for your customers who aren't professional sailors, especially the ones who ask difficult questions.

If the only "worthwhile" people doing the course are those doing it for a ticket does this mean you think that (a) there's no practically worthwhile content or (b) there is practically worthwhile content but you might just as well learn it from a book (because the instructor won't take kindly to difficult/obscure questions anyway?)
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When did I say "only worthwhile"?

No contempt, just more interesting with people who actually want to learn, rather than those just wanting another 'badge/scalp'. Time on these courses, is tight & the equivalent of thread deviation not only squanders this precious resource, but can confuse the other students who may be struggling. Learning the astro bit, as with many things, can be much easier if it's explained by someone else. However, as has been mentioned, a "course" is not essential if access to Cunliffe et al, is available.
 
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JumbleDuck said:
I can't see why you are being so snotty and demeaning. Is there a back story which would explain it?
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Just scroll back over the last 10 years or so and read his posts, which are usually either factually inaccurate or as in this case irrelevant. This despite being corrected on the factually inaccurate ones many, many times by both myself and others he repeats them as if nothing has happened.

Information on sailcloth that is at least 30 years out of date, and weird ideas about galvanic corrosion in brackish water based on secondhand experience of one boat are examples.

Just read them and come to your own conclusion.

As you know when you come from a background that seeks after truth and evidence, reading this claptrap is hard, but more importantly it is misleading to others. Just look at the original post in the context of the discussion at the time. Brings out the usual retort "Read the question....".
 
KellysEye said:
>As you have not done a course and do not know how to get a fix by sun and stars, what you posted was irrelevant.

You don't need to do an Astro course just buy Mary Blewitt's Astro book, the RYA also has one. The best fix I got was 5 degrees out and up to 10 degreees which I have posted elsewhere and clearly you haven't read it. Do keep up with other posts.
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Now, if your original post had said that you would not have got the same response from me, because is a relevant contribution. Would be even better if you explained how you taught your self astro and used it successfully. Posting it elsewhere is no good if you want it to be seen in relation to this thread. Nobody can read what is not there so can only comment on what you chose to write here.

However, you wasted words saying all you needed to know was how to sail a dinghy or do a few charters. Both dismissive and irrelevant at the same time so not worth posting.
 
>Would be even better if you explained how you taught your self astro and used it successfully.

Just read Mary's book it tells you exactly what to do and how to work out your position. It's easier to use a computer program rather than the astro tables, I used http://www.astrocalc.com/ we did carry tables as backup. Also It is much easier to find the sun or a planet or anything else if you turn the sextant upside down and bring the the horizon up to the object, make sure the shades are in the right position then move them back to normal when you turn the sextant upright to fine tune.
 
doug748 said:
... and another assisting you to "decide which direction is next for you".
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Could they not add a bit of astro to the syllabus of that one? I presume the OP is looking for a means of deciding which direction is next for him if his GPS goes down Mid Atlantic.
 
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