Why is Ocean Theory so Expensive?

[Paddy Layback]

I am keen to do my Ocean Theory, but the prices are absurd surely? £450 for 5 "days", each 'day' is probably 6 hours, with lunch, coffee breaks etc. Hiring a classroom and an old boy to explain it can't cost a tenth of that surely? Bearing in mind a class of 8 or 12 students.
It seems like a cartel of mickey takers. They are all similar. It would be ok if the price included a sextant and tables!

Any alternative suggestions in the Gosport area would be welcome. I don't care about the ticket, just need to be taught how to do it. Thanks PL

 

[[3889]]

I was offered Ocean Theory for £350 with 1:1 tuition. Wish I'd done it, with hindsight, but opted for an online course instead, which I am about half way through and starting to feel disappointed.
That said, £450 for a weeks training seems pretty good value to me, even with your slightly pessimistic figures that's £15/ hour. It was travelling distance, rather than course cost, which swayed me toward an online course.
Cornish Cruising offer the course for £395+ £60 accommodation (on a boat) which, I think, is great value. No connection other than a very satisfied former CI student. Definitely a "no frills" outfit but the 3 instructors I encountered there were excellent. Were I choosing again I'd go with them.

 

[alant]

I am keen to do my Ocean Theory, but the prices are absurd surely? £450 for 5 "days", each 'day' is probably 6 hours, with lunch, coffee breaks etc. Hiring a classroom and an old boy to explain it can't cost a tenth of that surely? Bearing in mind a class of 8 or 12 students.
It seems like a cartel of mickey takers. They are all similar. It would be ok if the price included a sextant and tables!

Any alternative suggestions in the Gosport area would be welcome. I don't care about the ticket, just need to be taught how to do it. Thanks PL

What is your day rate?
The course is a full 40 hours & trust me, you won't have much time for tea n biscuits.
The 40 hours does not include your 'homework'.
I'll give you a days teach in, but you'll have to make it worth visiting Gosport for.
PS 12 students is a rare ocurance & extremely tough on any instructor.

 

[bdh198]

If you don't need the ticket, you could always try and teach yourself.

I did an Atlantic crossing at the beginning of the year and with no previous experience of celestial navigation I managed to teach myself to a reasonable standard (I was regularly getting positions with in 3-5 miles of accuracy).

I took with me four different books on astro navigation and how to use a sextant, but by far the two best were the RYA Astro Navigation Handbook and Tom Cunliffe's Celestial Navigation. Both follow a similar format, but if one does not explain a particular aspect clearly, the other will more than make up for it.

The two other books you should get are the Nautical Almanac (commercial edition) - Don't bother with Reeds Astro Navigation Tables, it may be cheaper, but it's not set out the way the books teach you! and the Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation covering your particular latitude.

For the cost of the five day course you could not only get all those books, but also a decent sextant. I went to the more budge end and got a plastic Davis Mark 25, and actually found it very easy, comfortable and accurate to use.

Finally, sites like YouTube are filled with dozens of helpful videos on the subject.

 

[alant]

If you don't need the ticket, you could always try and teach yourself.

I did an Atlantic crossing at the beginning of the year and with no previous experience of celestial navigation I managed to teach myself to a reasonable standard (I was regularly getting positions with in 3-5 miles of accuracy).

I took with me four different books on astro navigation and how to use a sextant, but by far the two best were the RYA Astro Navigation Handbook and Tom Cunliffe's Celestial Navigation. Both follow a similar format, but if one does not explain a particular aspect clearly, the other will more than make up for it.

The two other books you should get are the Nautical Almanac (commercial edition) - Don't bother with Reeds Astro Navigation Tables, it may be cheaper, but it's not set out the way the books teach you! and the Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation covering your particular latitude.

For the cost of the five day course you could not only get all those books, but also a decent sextant. I went to the more budge end and got a plastic Davis Mark 25, and actually found it very easy, comfortable and accurate to use.

Finally, sites like YouTube are filled with dozens of helpful videos on the subject.

I taught a guy on a West to East Atlantic crossing, using Cunliffe, he managed sun & star sights + all the 'difficult sums' without any problem. You don't even have to understand it, to do it.

 

[[3889]]

If you don't need the ticket, you could always try and teach yourself.

I did an Atlantic crossing at the beginning of the year and with no previous experience of celestial navigation I managed to teach myself to a reasonable standard (I was regularly getting positions with in 3-5 miles of accuracy).

I took with me four different books on astro navigation and how to use a sextant, but by far the two best were the RYA Astro Navigation Handbook and Tom Cunliffe's Celestial Navigation. Both follow a similar format, but if one does not explain a particular aspect clearly, the other will more than make up for it.

The two other books you should get are the Nautical Almanac (commercial edition) - Don't bother with Reeds Astro Navigation Tables, it may be cheaper, but it's not set out the way the books teach you! and the Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation covering your particular latitude.

For the cost of the five day course you could not only get all those books, but also a decent sextant. I went to the more budge end and got a plastic Davis Mark 25, and actually found it very easy, comfortable and accurate to use.

Finally, sites like YouTube are filled with dozens of helpful videos on the subject.

This was the route I started off on during a Transat in November last, though I only took Sir Cunliffe's book, which contains all the necessary information but lacks index or contents pages, making it difficult to find specific items, IMO.
Almanac-wise, there is an abundance of pdf's and apps which will give you the data required for zilch expenditure and allow reverse engineering so you can workout where you have gone wrong.

 

[[3889]]

You don't even have to understand it, to do it.

Until the oral examination for YMO? Genuine question as an upcoming candidate: do I need to understand the whys or just the hows?

 

[bedouin]

I am keen to do my Ocean Theory, but the prices are absurd surely? £450 for 5 "days", each 'day' is probably 6 hours, with lunch, coffee breaks etc. Hiring a classroom and an old boy to explain it can't cost a tenth of that surely? Bearing in mind a class of 8 or 12 students.
It seems like a cartel of mickey takers. They are all similar. It would be ok if the price included a sextant and tables!

Any alternative suggestions in the Gosport area would be welcome. I don't care about the ticket, just need to be taught how to do it. Thanks PL

I suspect you may be overestimating the number of students. I would be surprised if they can pull in 12 students for a 5 days ocean course!

There are plenty of books out there that can teach you how to do it - and if your maths is up to scratch then that is fine - but it is a harder course to teach yourself than the normal Yachtmaster. There are online courses available but even those seem to be around £300

 

[alant]

Until the oral examination for YMO? Genuine question as an upcoming candidate: do I need to understand the whys or just the hows?

The oral, is more concerned about confirming your direct involvement of the passage planning/preparation, than your expertise at the theory behind the sums.

 

[lw395]

I suspect you may be overestimating the number of students. I would be surprised if they can pull in 12 students for a 5 days ocean course!

There are plenty of books out there that can teach you how to do it - and if your maths is up to scratch then that is fine - but it is a harder course to teach yourself than the normal Yachtmaster. There are online courses available but even those seem to be around £300

I think there were 5 or 6 of us when I did it.
I suspect it would be hard to teach it to a bigger class of random YMs.
Yes it was a pretty full day plus homework.

You might possibly make a saving if you can get 4 or 5 people together, organise the use of a classroom from a sailing club or whatever, and hire an instructor directly.
I don't know if any clubs, CA, RIN or anybody offers it cheaper to members?

 

[bedouin]

I don't know if any clubs, CA, RIN or anybody offers it cheaper to members?

The Little Ship Club used to do this for members fairly cheaply (but not so cheap that it was worth joining just for that). That is where I did mine but that was several years ago now.

 

[[70521]]

I am keen to do my Ocean Theory, but the prices are absurd surely? £450 for 5 "days", each 'day' is probably 6 hours, with lunch, coffee breaks etc. Hiring a classroom and an old boy to explain it can't cost a tenth of that surely? Bearing in mind a class of 8 or 12 students.
It seems like a cartel of mickey takers. They are all similar. It would be ok if the price included a sextant and tables!

I wish some of my courses for work were so cheap. £500+VAT per day is normal.

Attendance is not compulsory.

 

[Paddy Layback]

Food for thought gents, thanks. You can't do much better through the CA etc, as far as I can tell.
I like the classroom style, it works for me as you can bounce your bafflement off the other studes, and have the problem shown in a different light.
I've got a nice sextant and various books, but nobody seems able to explain what to actually DO, step by step, they are all brainy nerds, despite themselves, who have forgotten the basic struggles of the total virgin to achieve satisfaction!

 

[lw395]

Were there not some youtube vids?
IIRC the Cunliffe book is not too bad.

A lot of total beginners seem to get stuck on the very basic principle.
Which is imagining a cone formed by a circle on the globe and a point a long way above it.
So far away that the cone is effectively a cylinder.
Measuring the angle of elevation between the surface of the cone and the surface of the globe defines that circle.
So if you know that angle, you can put yourself on a circle.
Draw 2 circles and there are only two solutions to your position where they cross.

A good teacher who can understand why you don't understand is a real bonus.
I think the bloke who taught my class also taught cse maths to prison inmates.
Much better than having a rocket scientist who can't relate to the mathematically inept.
Even if you understand, you still have to sit through them beating it into someone who doesn't.

 

[[70521]]

I've got a nice sextant and various books, but nobody seems able to explain what to actually DO, step by step, they are all brainy nerds, despite themselves, who have forgotten the basic struggles of the total virgin to achieve satisfaction!

I liked this YouTube Channel felt it described it simply.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NavigationTraining/videos

 

[[3889]]

Thanks for that, (slightly) reassuring.

 

[laika]

The course is a full 40 hours & trust me, you won't have much time for tea n biscuits.

I don't think I've ever done an mca or rya course that was anywhere near 40 hours. IIRC ocean theory was maybe 30 which seems about standard: 9-5 with hour for lunch, 20 mins tea breaks morning and afternoon, occasional late starts, late back from lunch and early finishes with early end on friday.

In a "I'm rushing to catch a train and I need to grab any book to read" moment I recently re-read my old cunliffe book (not the current edition but I'm guessing his style hasn't changed) and can attest to the fact that it's ideal for anyone who wants to know what to do without knowing why but will annoy the cr&p out of anyone wanting to know what the numbers they're plugging into pro formas actually mean.

 

[alant]

I don't think I've ever done an mca or rya course that was anywhere near 40 hours. IIRC ocean theory was maybe 30 which seems about standard: 9-5 with hour for lunch, 20 mins tea breaks morning and afternoon, occasional late starts, late back from lunch and early finishes with early end on friday.

In a "I'm rushing to catch a train and I need to grab any book to read" moment I recently re-read my old cunliffe book (not the current edition but I'm guessing his style hasn't changed) and can attest to the fact that it's ideal for anyone who wants to know what to do without knowing why but will annoy the cr&p out of anyone wanting to know what the numbers they're plugging into pro formas actually mean.

You've obviously not been on any course I've run then & many needed the full time.
The RYA state 40hrs, certainly the Ocean course takes all of that.

 

[Skylark]

I am keen to do my Ocean Theory...................the prices are absurd.......
........hiring a classroom and an old boy to explain...............it seems like a cartel of mickey takers.

An interesting viewpoint.

Having spent a lifetime in engineering my view is that the vast majority of RYA courses represent very good value for money.

I guess that everyone has a different expectation and need from such a course. If all you need is to learn to take (a series of) sights and either use a computer to reduce one to derive a PL or to follow a template to derive the PL, then YouTube and Google will doubtless give you these for free.

Some people attending these courses endeavour to grasp the concept to bring about a real understanding, rather than blindly following the old boy and his cartel, mickey taker colleagues. Understanding the spherical trigonometry and demystifying the concept can bring a good deal of pleasure to some and, I suspect, helps significantly in the application, especially when the almost inevitable school-boy errors of "Chosen Position" or "Same or Contrary"for example, are made.

Whichever route you chose, good luck!

 

[KellysEye]

Jane and chartered yachts two or three times a year for 20 years and then bought a boat to go long disatnace sailing and had no RYA qualifications. Jane had sailed dinghies in Gibralter, where her father was based, and I bought and sailed a Sheerwater cat, as we found if you can sail a dinghy you can do any type of sailing.