Why haven't more dinghies adopted hydrofoils, for low-flying speed?

Greenheart

Greenheart

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International Moth, odd skiffs, some catamarans (I think), an RS600...

...all of which seemed to handle the airborne adjustment admirably well. Isn't it surprising that the hundreds of thousands of Laser sailors haven't attempted something similar?

Sounds like a Dragons' Den opportunity...an aftermarket set of foils/adjusters which raise the design's game literally and make it more spectacular. Hiking racks too, as they'd probably be needed...

...a one-piece tubular affair which could be based in the Laser's cockpit floor, maybe grip the coaming without making it necessary to drill holes? That might be a good aftermarket gadget, enabling lighter helms to use the Rooster sail area.

If one guy at a club made foils work, every Laser sailor there would want it by the end of the season...and there'd be another echelon to the Laser racing by next season too.

Maybe it could go Olympic? :eek:

Okay, now I'm ready to hear why there aren't any foiling Lasers. Or any other popular classes making the change...:rolleyes:
 
Probably cost, and Lasers have a useless rig for high speed. Foils have to be very stiff to take the lifting loads so they are expensive to build. If they could be mass produced maybe interesting but I think the Laser rig would be the problem. It would work on a reach but upwind at 20 knots I don't see the sail shape working too well. Nice idea and I must try a foiling Moth before I'm too old (I'll be out racing a Laser tomorrow and also have a 14 which gives me enough to think about without a twist grip foil rudder)
 
Because a laser is a bad enough platform for a conventional dinghy, let alone a foiler. Your question is the equivalent of "in snow, all cars are pretty useless apart from a discovery/defender. Why aren't all cars built with diff locks and solid axles and off road tyres in case it snows?"

The 600ff was pointless too. If you want to foil, sail a moth.
 
dancrane said:
If one guy at a club made foils work, every Laser sailor there would want it by the end of the season
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Errm, no. He'd turn up at the slipway, everyone would point out that the class rules don't permit foils, and he wouldn't be allowed to race. That's the point of dinghy classes - they're all the same (or within a set of rules) so that the competitors' skill is the determining factor. Unless its a development class, in which case coming up with things like foils is considered part of the game. Such classes include, oh, the International Moth, for example. Funny thing, that.

Pete
 
prv said:
That's the point of dinghy classes - they're all the same (or within a set of rules) so that the competitors' skill is the determining factor.
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That's all understood, Pete; but one thing I've noticed about Laser sailors as a breed, is their undisguised enjoyment of feeling quicker than more sluggardly designs; and thousands of Lasers go out every weekend in the summer for fun rather than competition...

...so I'd think it's a class where the opportunity to go a lot faster would be welcomed...and as soon as there were two at a club, they'd race too, and like a breeding pair, the impression of their superiority would spawn a feeling of gross inadequacy in those using the old non-foiling variety...
 
Dan,

foiler Moths and indeed Int Canoes don't make me think of Tinkerbell as they go past; I clearly remember the doppler effect fading into a crescendo then out again as a Canoe bloke went past yelling " aaaarghAAAAAAAARGHaaargh !

in Chichester Harbour the guys who sail Foiler Moths ( usually ex Canoe bods it seems ) are highly regarded as the cream of the cream, not least because they may be in ( vague ) control of something like an Exocet, but they are skilfull enough not to worry any boats like mine, just provide a spectacle as they scream past into time travel speeds - which I reckon deserves a Knighthood !
 
Seajet said:
In Chichester Harbour the guys who sail Foiler Moths ( usually ex Canoe bods it seems ) are highly regarded as the cream of the cream, not least because they may be in ( vague ) control of something like an Exocet, but they are skilfull enough not to worry any boats like mine, just provide a spectacle as they scream past into time travel speeds - which I reckon deserves a Knighthood !
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I apologise, unreservedly. I haven't any doubt that Foiling Moth helms are some of the quickest, fittest and most alert, anywhere. As to the design of the boat itself, the fact that it doesn't charm me says more about me, than it...I don't fancy a boat that looks as narrow as a rail, and prohibits relaxation and taking a girlfriend along...it's too extreme for me.

Same goes for the Int Canoe, in my book, at least as far as my observations lead me to believe: it can't often be a relaxing experience. Not its fault, I concede. That said, the tale of the chap who sailed a Canoe to France, picked up a hitcher and brought him back, is impressive stuff. :)

Just the same, I do like the RS600...it may be pure vanity, but it looks the part...amongst Moths, I'd be thinking, "a bumble bee among bluebottles". Sorry chaps. :rolleyes:
 
Foiling boats generally have to be designed from the outset for foiling. Most dinghy classes will be too heavy to foil effectively in even moderate breezes. Secondly the skill and balance, not to mention the fitness required is on another level when foiling and finally, as mentioned before, cost. Foils are not something the average person can just knock up out of two by four and a bit of marine ply.

Basically, for those who want to go on a boat with foils, there are classes out there for them. The majority though are happy to keep their lasers as they are.
 
Woodlouse said:
Foils are not something the average person can just knock up out of two by four...for those who want a boat with foils, there are classes out there. The majority are happy to keep their lasers as they are.
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That sounds very fair comment. But I'd have supposed a Laser would, by its lack of substance, have been light enough to lift off.

Presumably catamarans don't go fast enough with foils, to justify the bother?
 
The laser is actually quite heavy for its sail area.
It is also narrow, with limited righting power.
Foiling is not new, I suggest reading the book about Icarus, the foiling Tornado used for speed records.
That was a long time ago!
The foiling 600 has more or less died, as it is less practical than the Moth, and I believe, slower.
Several RS600FF people have moved to moths.
Dan, Have you read Frank Bethwaite's 'High Performance Sailing' and the sequel 'Hgiher Performance Sailing'?
 
I regret I haven't, although I doubt there's much the Bethwaite family doesn't know about sailing fast.

I remember seeing B&W pictures of Icarus, looking very frail and rather terrifying.

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Dan

Your assumptions are so wide of the mark. Lasers are slow, heavy, and floppy. They are just totally useless to convert to foils. A 600FF is monumentally behind the curve compared to a Moth in almost every respect. And how can the narrowness of a boat be remotely relevant when the hull isn't even in the water? You think a trapeze makes it easier? Hmmmm...

A moth is incredibly un-boatlike. You heel it to windward, not leeward. The mast comes down when you derig. It has a camber induced, windsurfer rig. You move forward on the bearaways and when the speed comes up. You cross the boat on gybes before the boom has come over. It only ever effectively goes upwind, and you go into gybes with leeward heel. It's a boat right up until the bit where you hit 9 knots and then it's airborne. Some of the good guys have been known to gybe upwind in marginal breeze to stay on the foils. You cannot bolt foils on a laser and make comparisons!

Given than a significant amount of moth development is focusing on reducing frontal area to reduce aerodynamic drag, you can see how wide of the mark a 600ff is with its colossal hull. The 600ff was originally built by the guys who built my Moth, who then realised what a **** idea it was and went back to concentrating on Moths.

Like an NZ R Class, putting foils on a 600 is a waste of a perfectly nice boat. Plenty of people still sail standard 600s, very, very few people still sail lowrider Moths. One was a big improvement to the class, one wasn't...
 
Very interesting and helpful, thank you. My enquiries are curiosity-led, not based on any intent to commence Moth-ing...but I expect that much of what you're saying, is clarification to other people's wondering too.

Is it a matter of choice, how deep (or high) a Moth centreboard is?

What's the next probable step-up, in efficiency? Maybe Teflon-coated foils, something like that?
 
dancrane said:
That's all understood, Pete; but one thing I've noticed about Laser sailors as a breed, is their undisguised enjoyment of feeling quicker than more sluggardly designs; and thousands of Lasers go out every weekend in the summer for fun rather than competition...

...so I'd think it's a class where the opportunity to go a lot faster would be welcomed...and as soon as there were two at a club, they'd race too, and like a breeding pair, the impression of their superiority would spawn a feeling of gross inadequacy in those using the old non-foiling variety...
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I always feel like I'm sailing a barge with a handkerchief when I sail my Laser. Fast? faster than a pontoon but it needs 20knts to move. lasers are heavy horrible slow boats...but they are indestructable and they can be sailed with a full rig in 40knts. I use mine for mad fun when nothing else can sail or for fleet racing in the winter when there isn't much else happening, like now off to the water shame its only 8knts, but some fresh air and excercise.
 
Foil length...foils are made in a mould, it's a small class so certainly in the uk theres only a few moulds about, and perhaps just one of the current shape. So they all tend to bet the same. Biggest developments tend to be...

-Hull shape...particularly WRT rocker (remember its designed to sail slowly, 9 knots max), frontal area
-Rig/sails, KA Australia lead the development here and the vast majority use KA sails, with some Hyde
-Foils...early foiling and high speed. The first set of Rocket foils are halfway through being built, and are scarily high aspect ratio.

Have aloof at the McConaghy Mach2 website (AUS) or Aardvark racing in the UK and you will find a lot of info on there.
 
Iain C,

how long before we see a Centaur on foils, then ?

It has to happen, even if assisted by a vectoring Pegasus jet engine, some nut will do it, judging by the things one sees on Sky TV ! :rolleyes:
 
Iain C said:
Dan

Your assumptions are so wide of the mark. Lasers are slow, heavy, and floppy. ......
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How things have changed in the 40 years I've been sailing.
Lasers were the fastest boats in my first club, where the main racing was Solo, Enterprise, Mirror and British Moth.
British Moth is a very different animal to a moth, only thing in common is the hull length!
 
At my club solos are still a very popular class which gives excellent fleet racing...far better than you'll get in a Moth unless you are some kind of foiling god. Which I'm not!
 
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