Why gybe when tacking?

Have to have a go..... Language of course is a fluid thing changing all the time so lets noty argue about what term means what. All you have to do is make the listener understand what you mean.
Certainly in some circumstances sail boats will not tack. This is often in rough seas and heavy winds where the elements cvombine to stop the boat before it has turned far enough through the wind to get under way again. Cats are notorious and some monos are worse than others. If it won't tack then you gota jibe.
The main sheet on a bigger boat should be pulled in as the boom comes across and released as the boom swings out on the new leeward. The slow releasing of the sheet and the friction of the tackle combining to gentle the inertia of the boom as it swings over to stop. The crash on arrival can be 'orrible.

No one has mentioned the technique of backing the jib when tacking is difficult. This usually involves leaving the jib cleated tight on the old tack so that as the boat turns through the wind the wind hits the back of the jib turning it inside out. The thrust on this angled sail turns the bow even further in the direction you need. Once the boat has turned far enough you change the jib to the correct side for the new ttack. The converse is that if you pull the jib across to the new side too soon before the boat has passed head to wind the wind on the angled jib will push the bow back or stop it turning.
As I said sometimes the wind and waves frustrates even this technique and gybing is the only way.
Finally yes teaching and explaining yacht actions can be difficult in the pressure of things out of hand. Maybe you should give your teacher another chance. If not teach him...
.....olewill
 
Not replying to anyone in particular and like to think that I am not usually pedantic (which is why I didn't comment on this in my reply to the original poster), but mis-using words and phrases so that they are being used in the opposite sense to the original meaning is (I find) frustrating.

To me:

beating is making progress to windward on different tacks

tack - a noun indicating the aspect of the boat compared to the wind (e.g. starboard tack) OR
- a verb indicating the process of moving the boat's bow through the eye of the wind to put the boat onto the other TACK (noun)

tacking - is the verb form and can ONLY mean putting the boat's bow through the eye of the wind

gybe - as a noun can mean the same thing as tack (noun) but with the wind aft of the beam (being on starboard gybe) - I am not sure this is correct but I have heard it used
- as a verb - the opposite of tack - putting the boat's stern through the eye of the wind to change tacks


With that background - I find it frustrating to hear people say they tack downwind when they really mean they are gybing downwind. I have tacked downwind on one occassion (J24 race in over 35 knots of wind - we were scared of trying to gybe the main. Thankfully for us and the one other boat out there, the race committee abandoned the race when it realised all the course marks were being blown away). On the other hand, I almost always gybe downwind unless I can lay the mark/destination on a single (not DDW) gybe.

I have also gybed while beating - in a Hobie cat in a sloppy sea and relatively light wind. It just wasn't worth the risk of missing the tack - much better to just gybe around, maintain speed and get moving on the other tack.

But please - talking about tacking downwind (when you mean gybing) or beating downwind really just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Bolx - you don't know what you're talking about ...

"tacking downwind" is the common terminoligy used to describe the progress of an assymetric spinnaker boat proceeding on a downwind course. These boats do not (generally) tack at each change of course (known as wearing round) they gybe.

tacking and beating are commonly interchanged and both mean making progress to windward - tacking also has the meaning of putting the nose through the wind.

tack is also the noun for the forward corner of the sail ...

clew is a noun that commonly describes the aft part of the sail - something you don't seem to have! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Don't get too frustrated. I'm fairly sure you're wrong, but wouldn't like to imply that this involves ignorance on your part. It doesn't matter that much.

I think that you'll find that the opposite of the word "to gybe" (to pass the stern through the wind onto a diferent tack) is "to go about" (to pass the bows through the wind onto a different tack). To tack means to go onto a different tack, whether using the bows or the stern.

English is defined by common usage, and the verb "to tack" is, I believe, commonly used to denote the process of gybing your way downwind on different tacks.
 
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But please - talking about tacking downwind (when you mean gybing) or beating downwind really just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

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How to make friends and influence people.

It is quite common parlance to say tacking or beating downwind to describe the alternative to a dead run, when the chance of an involuntary gybe is to be avoided. Some boats are much easier to sail this way.

As you seem to have some rather fixed definitions for terminology, you will be gradually marginalised and confused as new uses of terms progressively enter the language.
English has the charm of being an organic language which grows to fit the circumstances.
 
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No one has mentioned the technique of backing the jib when tacking is difficult.

[/ QUOTE ] I release my headsail sheets late as a matter of course to help the boat swing through the wind. My old boat needed the help in light airs and whilst my new one tacks easily it means less hassle when sailing single handed and less headsail flapping. The wind pressure on the sail also helps with other bug-bear of small yachts, discussed in depth on here, of the sheets catching on the shrouds.
 
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I think that you'll find that the opposite of the word "to gybe" (to pass the stern through the wind onto a diferent tack) is "to go about" (to pass the bows through the wind onto a different tack). To tack means to go onto a different tack, whether using the bows or the stern.


[/ QUOTE ] This definition by SimonCr above is my understanding of the process. To me, tacking is to change tack, whichever means is used to do it. Which is why I questioned your earlier assertion 'so you can't gybe while tacking'. Sorry for the delay in responding.
 
I recently read that in some American useages a"gybe" means what we would understand by a tack. ("on the port gybe" is what I read) That doesn't explain this instance, but is perhaps a reminder that these useages that "we" consider standard are not necessarily universal.

Although it is standard practice to sheet in when gybing to try to control the boom, an interesting alternative was suggested recently. In a very strong wind, where you really have to gybe but are reluctant to risk it, you leave the boom right out, turn gradually as far as you dare, then smartly do the turn but keep on swinging round until you are almost closehauled on the other tack. The boom comes across with a terrific whallop, but because you are no longer trying to run, the boom runs out of steam and ends up with the sail shaking because it has suddenly been emptied of wind. You then haul in the sheet and pay off again.
The theory is that the risk of the boom swinging over violently but being unrestrained by sheet or shrouds might be less than the risk of not being able to pay the sheeted-in boom out smartly enough. Apparently it takes real nerve to execute, and looks spectacular, but in confident hands can have its uses. Not for me though!

The only purpose I can see in the manoeuvre as described (other than practice in gybing) might be in a badly balanced boat that was reluctant to turn up into the wind, or possibly if you were caught with too much sail up forward and had temporarily unbalanced the rig - perhaps caught halfway through a reefing operation and forced to change course.
I suppose it could be a last ditch way of avoiding a collision with another boat close-hauled on the other tack, by smartly turning off downwind rather than continuing on a collision course.
 
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I release my headsail sheets late as a matter of course to help the boat swing through the wind. My old boat needed the help in light airs and whilst my new one tacks easily it means less hassle when sailing single handed and less headsail flapping. The wind pressure on the sail also helps with other bug-bear of small yachts, discussed in depth on here, of the sheets catching on the shrouds.


[/ QUOTE ] We've got a bit off topic now but as a fellow singlehanded small boat sailer I'm with you all the way there. The first sailboat I was ever taken on was a gunter rigged 17' Lysander. With a jib as small as that had the technique of backing it briefly when tacking was standard practice.
 
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"tacking downwind" is the common terminoligy used to describe the progress of an assymetric spinnaker boat proceeding on a downwind course. These boats do not (generally) tack at each change of course (known as wearing round) they gybe. I know it is common terminology - what annoys me is that it is mis-using the word "tacking" when "gybing downwind" is more accurate.

tacking and beating are commonly interchanged and both mean making progress to windward - tacking also has the meaning of putting the nose through the wind. Agreed

tack is also the noun for the forward corner of the sail ... Agreed

clew is a noun that commonly describes the aft part of the sail - something you don't seem to have! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif you're right - sadly I don't have a clew at the moment, but I hope to remedy that soon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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FTR, I don't have an objection to the evolution of language - I understand what people mean when they say they are tacking downwind - I just don't think it is correct, and indeed is confusing to use a word that usually refers to putting the bow through the eye of the wind, to mean putting the stern through the eye of the wind (which has its own word).

end / rant
 
I'd never heard of beating downwind until I read this thread - but now if someone mentions it I will understand what they mean.

I know the language is organic and growing, but should there be no limits?

rant (on this subject) over.
 
My boat tacks/comes about/does-the-turny-thing quite easily, but I've had to back the jib on heavier boats to get through the wind.

I think I have the answer to the original question: The poster is learning to sail in a Polynesian outrigger. They have to do a series of three point turns when beating upwind.
 
Language?

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I don't have an objection to the evolution of language - I understand what people mean when they say they are tacking downwind - I just don't think it is correct, and indeed is confusing to use a word that usually refers to putting the bow through the eye of the wind, to mean putting the stern through the eye of the wind (which has its own word).

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This isn't simply about the evolution of language, it's also the evolution of boats.

Most of the terminology of sailing comes from square riggers. Even "starboard tack" and "port tack" come from the use of a line (called a 'tack') to pull on the forward corner of the sail; sailing with the wind coming from the starboard side meant that the starboard tack was in use. Old square riggers could very easily sail dead downwind, and zig-zagging from side to side would be no problem without fore-and-aft sails. So they didn't really need special words to describe the technique. Going to windward, though, was much more difficult; did you know that a properly trained crew might be able to complete a tack in 15 minutes or so? So the process of beating generated many terms; tacking, going about, box-hauling, club-hauling, flat aback, in stays, in irons, etc.

Nowadays, with all fore-and-aft sails, tacking is far easier. But now wearing or gybing becomes more difficult, and efficient sailing is better done by zig-zagging down wind. Because there was no need for such a term on a square rigger, the term doesn't exist and we are forced to use the old words in a new way. Hence "tacking downwind".

Can anyone think of a better way of describing it?
 
Re: Language?

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Hence "tacking downwind".

Can anyone think of a better way of describing it?


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The answer to your question is no, but, when "tacking downwind" do you change tack by gybing or going about
 
Re: Language?

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The answer to your question is no, but, when "tacking downwind" do you change tack by gybing or going about

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If I'm in charge, then we gybe. But I have seen people go about. Seems silly, really, because as they're doing it they have to harden up on the sheets, then let them out again. A simple gybe is much easier.
 
Re: Language?

Depends on the wind - I raced the other evening and got 2 gybes in with the kite .... came to do the third and decided we'd be quicker to drop the kite and wear around (tack - put the nose through the wind) rather than risk a capsise on a gybe ... worked fine too ! With the wind at F6 it sometimes pays to be slow .... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Language?

That's in a dinghy. The boats I sail don't capsize in a gybe; they may lose a mast, destroy gear, knock your head off or strangle you with the mainsheet, but they won't capsize!
 
High Clifford. The manouvre you describe is interesting in concept. I have done it many times but not intentionally. My little boat when hard pressed under spin when gybed is inclined to heel to leeward on the new tack which consequently makes the boat round up into wind. (you know gunwhale under water rudder out of water mast in the water, all hell breaks looses)
This however happens partly because of the inertia of the boom going over. I can't imagine I could turn the boat into the wind fast enough to stop the boom going right over.( and it turns quickly)

The technique now is to get the forward hand, after changinng the pole over to come aft on the old leeward side as the boat is actually gybed so that he can swing out on the stay wires on the new windward side as necessary to keep the boat up right. In the same way the crew must be ready to balance the boat by moving weight and the helmsman must be ready to counteract the strong (new) windward swing.

The thing about gybing is that the faster the boat goes the less the apparent wind so less damage. So keep those hulls planing when gybing. (tongue in cheek)..... olewill (dreaming of a coming summer)
 
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