Why doesn't Tom Cunliffe Like Centre Cockpits?

[noelex]

An aft cockpit is best for fishing, and cleaning your catch,especially with a low freeboard. Much easier to lift a bucket of water on board and you can trail your hand in the sea to wash the blood and guts off.

Once again it depends on the specifics of the design. There are no problems doing that in my cc boat.

 

[Ianhampshire]

Interesting thread and some very well considered comments. Obviously it seems to be very much a case of personal preference so for what it's worth I'll side with the CC group as I'm the owner of a 38' Westerly Oceanranger.

The cockpit is small which does make laying down hard if your over 5'8" and with any more than 3-4 people on board the cockpit feels crowded. However, at sea it is deep and feels very safe/secure despite it being perched higher up.

I agree that mooring up is slightly harder given that the helmsman is further away from the aft mooring cleats that he would be in an AC however the overall/all round view when coming alongside is better.

It's down below that things change for the better. The aft cabin is usable at sea and in port and SHMBO no longer complains about sleeping in a coffin. The privacy gained when there are others on the boat is also a bonus.

On the Oceanranger the passageway between saloon and aft cabin runs down the Port side. The starboard side of the boat is where the huge 'climb in' lazerette is located and this is certainly much bigger than the deck lockers found on many AC boats.

The choice between an AC or CC is probably much like the choice between a saloon or a hatchback car. Both work equally well and its purely down to personal preference.

 

[alant]

Interesting thread and some very well considered comments. Obviously it seems to be very much a case of personal preference so for what it's worth I'll side with the CC group as I'm the owner of a 38' Westerly Oceanranger.

The cockpit is small which does make laying down hard if your over 5'8" and with any more than 3-4 people on board the cockpit feels crowded. However, at sea it is deep and feels very safe/secure despite it being perched higher up.

I agree that mooring up is slightly harder given that the helmsman is further away from the aft mooring cleats that he would be in an AC however the overall/all round view when coming alongside is better.

It's down below that things change for the better. The aft cabin is usable at sea and in port and SHMBO no longer complains about sleeping in a coffin. The privacy gained when there are others on the boat is also a bonus.

On the Oceanranger the passageway between saloon and aft cabin runs down the Port side. The starboard side of the boat is where the huge 'climb in' lazerette is located and this is certainly much bigger than the deck lockers found on many AC boats.

The choice between an AC or CC is probably much like the choice between a saloon or a hatchback car. Both work equally well and its purely down to personal preference.

"I agree that mooring up is slightly harder given that the helmsman is further away from the aft mooring cleats that he would be in an AC"

Ever thought of just using a mooring line attached to mid cleat first, springing onto pontoon & then attaching rest at your leisure?

 

[Ianhampshire]

"I agree that mooring up is slightly harder given that the helmsman is further away from the aft mooring cleats that he would be in an AC"

Ever thought of just using a mooring line attached to mid cleat first, then attaching rest at your leisure?

The problem is that the midship cleats are even further away from my helm position than the after cleats. To be fair I can get to the aft cleats fairly quickly but it requires a little agility leaping in and out of the back of the cockpit

 

[Ianhampshire]

"I agree that mooring up is slightly harder given that the helmsman is further away from the aft mooring cleats that he would be in an AC"

Ever thought of just using a mooring line attached to mid cleat first, springing onto pontoon & then attaching rest at your leisure?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I keep the boat in the Baltic where most berthing is in 'boxes' rather than alongside. This means passing the two stern lines over the top of the two posts as you sail between them. the trick is then controling the boat whilst securing both aft mooring lines and all the time watching your approach to the jetty ahead.

 

[GrahamM376]

We've had aft and centre cockpit boats. Much prefer centre cockpit for several reasons. Accommodation in aft cabin much improved, drier cockpit in big seas, contrary to popular opinion less movement as nearer centre of pitch - SWMBO very rarely seasick compared to aft cockpit. With many people the rise and fall iof aft cockpit s what makes them sick, not roll.

 

[LadyInBed]

You forgot, steering cables have further to run & emergency tiller leave a lot to be desired should the cables fail.

With a decent A/H that works on the steering quadrant or on a stub tiller on the rudder stock you don't need a emergency tiller.
(I believe that the ARC accept this arrangement in their regs).

 

[alant]

With a decent A/H that works on the steering quadrant or on a stub tiller on the rudder stock you don't need a emergency tiller.
(I believe that the ARC accept this arrangement in their regs).

Hope the electrics are able to stand it.

 

[Gerry]

Have sailed both although I own an aft cockpit.

Prefer aft for a couple of reasons, closer to the water makes me feel more 'in touch' with the prevailing weather and ocean conditions, with the wheel directly above the rudder there is a far greater sensitivity to the 'feel' of the boat through the water.

Masses of space to sleep fully stretched and find a spot out of the sun/rain. The self-steering gear is easily accessible and easier to 'tweak'.

I do have walk round bed envy though!!

 

[Captn D]

Another advantage of many centre cockpit yachts is that the mainsheet is on a traveler behind the after cockpit coming giving good purchase directly at the aft point of the boom, allowing easy adjustment by the helmsmen and is out of the way of the cockpit itself. The downside is that by necessity the boom is often set higher than in aft cockpit yachts. Horses for courses!

 

[jonic]

Another advantage of many centre cockpit yachts is that the mainsheet is on a traveler behind the after cockpit

A major advantage if children or inexperienced crew are on board.

 

[affinite]

It's hard to generalise about cc verses ac designs. cc work better as crusing boats and are mor e practical in the larger sizes, but to address the issues you raised.

1. The cockpit is much less likely to be swamped in a cc design. In 5 years of full time sailing I have only had drops and i mean drops of water in the cockpit . If the cockpit does get swamped the weight near the centre of gravity of the boat is likely to cause few problems. I do agree cockpit drains are inadequate in many boats both cc and ac. An open transom design is not great for offshore sailing, but is great at anchor.

2. cc provide a great view of the boats extremities which is helps when docking, particaurly for larger yachts. A spring line is easier to get on in a cc design, but i do agree stern lines are harder.

3. Many cc boats I have seen have much greater deck storage than ac designs, reflecting their design as crusing boats, but this will obviously vary considerably with different models. In my cc boat I could probably fit a football team in the outside lockers.

There are no problems stretching out my 6 foot 2 inch frame in the cockpit.

"In my cc boat I could probably fit a football team in the outside lockers"

..... and they could probably park their minibus on your driveway at the stern

 

[Sybarite]

I like the idea of a cc boat but rather one without a walkthrough. In the length of boat I'm considering this would mean unduly raising the cockpit height, reducing both storage and privacy. Obviously I'm looking at older designs such as a Salar 40 or a Moody Halberdier 36 or a Rasmus/Nab 35. All of these have fixed doghouses for weather protection.

 

[Marsupial]

It's hard to generalise about cc verses ac designs. cc work better as crusing boats and are mor e practical in the larger sizes, but to address the issues you raised.

1. In 5 years of full time sailing I have only had drops and i mean drops of water in the cockpit . If the cockpit does get swamped the weight near the centre of gravity of the boat is likely to cause few problems. I do agree cockpit drains are inadequate in many boats both cc and ac. An open transom design is not great for offshore sailing, but is great at anchor.

Its not about mines bigger than yours but I have 52 years sailing and a CC full water really upsets your day, it hasn't happened to you yet but think about it - under what conditions do you think you would have a cockpit full of water? now think about how long it takes to drain while you now have a boat thats a couple of tons heavier above the water line in those conditions. 6 mtr breaking waves did it for me.

I have achieved this unhappy state twice in a Victor 40 and a Mirage 30 not nice but both survived and I would sail another without hesitation.

the walk through transom of my current boat has a seat that slides up and down, when up there is a 18" x 12" hole for water to escape, it does in seconds tested it once (and it wasn't weather that caused the problem it was a Dunkirk Dover ferry passing to fast to close).

 

[noelex]

Its not about mines bigger than yours but I have 52 years sailing and a CC full water really upsets your day, it hasn't happened to you yet but think about it - under what conditions do you think you would have a cockpit full of water? now think about how long it takes to drain while you now have a boat thats a couple of tons heavier above the water line in those conditions. 6 mtr breaking waves did it for me.

I have achieved this unhappy state twice in a Victor 40 and a Mirage 30 not nice but both survived and I would sail another without hesitation.

the walk through transom of my current boat has a seat that slides up and down, when up there is a 18" x 12" hole for water to escape, it does in seconds tested it once (and it wasn't weather that caused the problem it was a Dunkirk Dover ferry passing to fast to close).

I do agree cockpit drains are inadequate in some boats.
My cockpit well holds about 0.75 tons of water. There are two 2 1/2 inch drains that would drain it reasonably quickly.
One way of looking at the weight would be thinking of 10 or 12 crew all sitting or lying down in the cockpit, not a great problem for 47 foot boat. Unlike AC boat the weight is near the pitch centre so there is no risk of sinking the stern down.

I think there would be other things of much more concern like how I would stand up to a ton of water landing on top of me.

 

[Lakesailor]

I read in Yachting monthly that Tom Cunliffe does not like centre cockpit yachts

He likes to piss over the stern out of the back of the cockpit

 

[Marsupial]

I think there would be other things of much more concern like how I would stand up to a ton of water landing on top of me.

yes agreed thats the one thats gets you, a ton of water is only a cubic metre, a big wave has many cubic metres

 

[ianat182]

Though I like centre cockpit yachts, Moodys and Westerlys particularly, disadvantages show up when mooring up with family or guests having to jump down the extra height when mooring up, and returning aboard when leaving.
Older crew are more likely to pull joints and muscles at this stage than during any other part of the cruise, and a slippery pontoon adds to the risk.
As regards the boom this is a possibility particularly on the M376 where a friend of mione gained a new painful hair parting during the RTIR with much red stuff flowing about.
All in all the extra in accommodation and general living space below are the things which will persuade the other half that a Centre cockpit arrangement is a 'good thing', hence she will come sailing regularly.
Regretfully I have a small aft cockpit Westerly so seldom have other half aboard-(vertigo).

ianat182

 

[GrahamM376]

Though I like centre cockpit yachts, Moodys and Westerlys particularly, disadvantages show up when mooring up with family or guests having to jump down the extra height when mooring up, and returning aboard when leaving. Older crew are more likely to pull joints and muscles at this stage than during any other part of the cruise, and a slippery pontoon adds to the risk.

As regards the boom this is a possibility particularly on the M376 where a friend of mione gained a new painful hair parting during the RTIR with much red stuff flowing about.

We're "older" but still very active and these problems are easily overcome.

We use a step fender for boarding and also when coming alongside so it's an easy step down for SWMBO. Boom not a problem (famous last words!) as bimini comes between our heads and the boom.

 

[VADROUILLE]

We're "older" but still very active and these problems are easily overcome.

We use a step fender for boarding and also when coming alongside so it's an easy step down for SWMBO. Boom not a problem (famous last words!) as bimini comes between our heads and the boom.

+1 Our 38 is the same, bimini stops you getting knocked over board. And having 2 women on board i have to have a fender step for them to get there leg over. The guardrails before anyone pulls me on that..........