Why doesn't Tom Cunliffe Like Centre Cockpits?

[prv]

I helped deliver a centre-cockpit Hallberg-Rassy years ago. Lovely boat, and the only downside to the cockpit position that I can think of was that the owner's wife had to use a bucket to throw up into because the gunwale was too far away.

Pete

 

[PaulJS]

Less than 40 ft

I've just made an offer on an old 31 ft centre cockpit yacht, despite having read TC's reasoning.
I guess that there are pros and cons for either layout, but for me the advantages of having 3 cabins outweigh the constraints on their size. I don't think that this particular design will be any less comfortable than an aft cockpit version as the cockpit deck is still on top of the engine and in fact I think being nearer the boat's centre will reduce the effect of pitching.
Anyway, I still don't know if my offer has been accepted, but as they say... "No news is good news"!

 

[johnphilip]

A bit remote from the rest of us.

Is it just me or do others feel that centre cockpit yachts tend to motor just that bit faster through close packed anchorages?

 

[Tradewinds]

You

 

[LadyInBed]

the owner's wife had to use a bucket to throw up into because the gunwale was too far away.

A down side for some, a safety feature for others
Another feature of a CC is that you don't get swamped when big waves creep up from behind, especially at night.

I love my Pilot House CC Ketch, not so far to get to the mast or bow, SWMBO feel very secure with lots of boat all around her, only 3 steps to go down into the saloon and all round vis from saloon. I love the versatility of a Ketch, I could go on & on & on

To make a comparison with cars, some people don't like estate cars but they suit others well. Horses for courses.

 

[laika]

AT 1.89m (a bit over 6'2" in old money) I can lie down in the cockpit of my Westerly Oceanlord (admittedly not pointing my toes). I'm not sure I've heard the "centre cockpit is more nausea inducing because it's higher up" argument before. I would have thought being closer to the boat's centre would minimize motion. Biggest problem I notice is distance from the side of the boat to the helm, making participation in the mooring under power process with anything more than wheel and throttle somewhat difficult for the helmsperson and single handing into a tight marina berth with wind off the pontoon a daunting prospect.

 

[graham]

One problem with cc yachts is the crew weight is too far forward causing this to happen

 

[Marsupial]

Most people will never have to worry about my first dislike of centre cockpits but many will realise my second, my third depends on the size of the boat.

1. IF you are swamped by a large breaking wave a centre cockpit takes a long time to drain compared to a modern open transom aft cockpit type. (I have been swamped in both and the CC appeared to take years to drain, the aft cockpit seconds).

2. The helmsman in a centre cockpit is a bit of a passenger when it comes to mooring up because he/she cannot to reach the helm, engine controls and either aft cleat.

3. In most CC I have owned and have seen the stowage for sailing stuff is lamentable, two shallow lockers at worst a small lazarett at best, but the aft cabins are palatial - perhaps owners of CC yachts have different priorities.

my current aft cockpit twin wheel boat has a 6ft 2inch cockpit seat to stretch out on.

 

[PeterWright]

Centre vs aft cockpits

Having sailed both sorts of yacht many miles over the past 50 years, I can confirm that the only significant drawback of a centre cockpit is the smaller cockpit size when you have a large crew - this makes them inconvenient for racing.

Our current boat is a Moody 425, which features a large sundeck aft of the cockpit (and aft of the main sheet) fine for extra hands if you're cruising in pleasant weather, but a bit exposed in a blow (although less so than playing rail meat on a racer).

The cockpit is above the boat's roll axis, but much nearer to the pitch axis, so in a head sea or a following sea you feel much less motion. The cockpit position gives much better protection from waves breaking over the stern in a heavy following sea.

The feeling of security in the cockpit has more to do with detail design than aft / centre cockpit differences. On our Moody, the coaming goes right around the cockpit and comes halfway up my back when seated. The narrowness ofthe cockpit makes it easy to brace feet against the leeward seats when sitting up to windward, unlike modern wide cockpits. The boom, with the main set will clear a 2m tall person stood on the cockpit sole (but not if he stands on the seat!)

It's interesting to note that in the 1979 Fastnet race, Winkie Nixon was on board an Oyster 39 (centre cockpit). They rounded the rock and, on the way home, assisted other yachts in difficulties. Having previously believed the oft quoted "exposed position" of centre cockpits, he was astonished to find that he felt more secure in this centre cockpit boat than any other yacht he had sailed in truly heavy weather.

Many others have mentioned the superb aft cabin a centre cockpit gives. On our Moody, the passages are not gloomy, to port is the aft heads and to starboard a passage cabin with upper and lower bunks. Both have large portlights. The other accomodation benefit is that the designer can much more readily provide what I regard as essential for any serious cruising yacht - access to the galley, the chart table and a heads without the need to troop dripping through the saloon or sleeping accomodation. I recognise this is sometimes achieved on aft cockpit boats (e.g. Westerly Storm, Elan 333) but it is too often found too difficult. A centre cockit also tends to put the galley nearer the centre of the boat - much appreciated by sea cooks in a seaway.

So Tom has his opinions and some reasoning behind them. I would not choose a centre cockpit boat for racing (except perhaps for something like the AZAB - long distance and short handed) but for serious cruising in my sixties, and hopefully a lot longer, it is the right choice for me.

Peter

 

[Blueboatman]

These points are probably hardly worthy of consideration to most folk these days, in the big scheme of things, but to me, the higher cc can make things that bit more difficult when coming alongside shorthanded, ESP coupled with typically topsides for stepping off from to get a line on, and possibly more windage whilst doing so.
And secondly I have personally felt that much less connected with the rudder when steering from amidships. And there is no possibility of tiller steering if course.

Friends with Nab35s and Warrior 35s love their low centre cockpits.
TC wasn't a huge fan of my boat and I would beg to differ with him on what he found tricky to do on it but to be fair that is all about setting em up right and reeling off enough miles to get it down pat most every time.

 

[noelex]

Most people will never have to worry about my first dislike of centre cockpits but many will realise my second, my third depends on the size of the boat.

1. IF you are swamped by a large breaking wave a centre cockpit takes a long time to drain compared to a modern open transom aft cockpit type. (I have been swamped in both and the CC appeared to take years to drain, the aft cockpit seconds).

2. The helmsman in a centre cockpit is a bit of a passenger when it comes to mooring up because he/she cannot to reach the helm, engine controls and either aft cleat.

3. In most CC I have owned and have seen the stowage for sailing stuff is lamentable, two shallow lockers at worst a small lazarett at best, but the aft cabins are palatial - perhaps owners of CC yachts have different priorities.

my current aft cockpit twin wheel boat has a 6ft 2inch cockpit seat to stretch out on.

It's hard to generalise about cc verses ac designs. cc work better as crusing boats and are mor e practical in the larger sizes, but to address the issues you raised.

1. The cockpit is much less likely to be swamped in a cc design. In 5 years of full time sailing I have only had drops and i mean drops of water in the cockpit . If the cockpit does get swamped the weight near the centre of gravity of the boat is likely to cause few problems. I do agree cockpit drains are inadequate in many boats both cc and ac. An open transom design is not great for offshore sailing, but is great at anchor.

2. cc provide a great view of the boats extremities which is helps when docking, particaurly for larger yachts. A spring line is easier to get on in a cc design, but i do agree stern lines are harder.

3. Many cc boats I have seen have much greater deck storage than ac designs, reflecting their design as crusing boats, but this will obviously vary considerably with different models. In my cc boat I could probably fit a football team in the outside lockers.

There are no problems stretching out my 6 foot 2 inch frame in the cockpit.

 

[jonic]

Absolutely love my Moody 38 cc and I have had aft cockpit boats too.

 

[penfold]

More modern designs tend to have the cockpit much higher up to allow cabins and walkways under it. This can lead to a more exposed cockpit and a more exagerrated movement due to the higher position when pitching or rolling.

As other posters have noted, CCs usually have the cockpit slightly higher than ACs, so you are further from the centre of bouyancy and therefore will feel rolling motion more, but you are also nearer the centre of the boat longitudinally and will feel pitching and yawing less. It's all relative though.

 

[LadyInBed]

One problem with cc yachts is the crew weight is too far forward causing this to happen

But you still stay dry on a return from a 'booze cruse'

 

[njsail]

I'll add my personal words of wisdom. Who cares what Tom thinks (sorry Tom). I love owning and sailing a center cockpit. It has pros and cons but it does a few things really well. It floats. It moves when i put the white sail thingies up...and my wife doesn't moan and groan about sleeping in a coffin. Other than that life is good aboard. Be happy...go sailing! When you drop the anchor have a cold drink and put on some island music.

 

[Nostrodamus]

As has been mentioned it's horses for courses.
Looking around at the aft cockpits on boats next to me our centre cockpit is not that much higher.
It allows others on the boat to prepare mooring lines without getting in the way of the helmsman and once you get used to it it can be quiet easy for the helmsman to assist with mooring. You do get a better view when coming alongside as well.
Another possible advantage is access to the engine which is often better on a C/C as you tend to be able to get right round it.
The main thing you have to get used to from an aft cockpit is remembering your pivot points and that you have quiet a bit of boat behind you, not just in front.

 

[VADROUILLE]

Most people will never have to worry about my first dislike of centre cockpits but many will realise my second, my third depends on the size of the boat.


2. The helmsman in a centre cockpit is a bit of a passenger when it comes to mooring up because he/she cannot to reach the helm, engine controls and either aft cleat.


my current aft cockpit twin wheel boat has a 6ft 2inch cockpit seat to stretch out on.

A couple of people have said the helmsman cant do anything when mooring due to his location on a cc.

I have to disagree, On my 38 i have sailied the old girl single handed, which does include me mooring her up on my own. I grant you, its not easy, but once practiced its second nature.

Now in the med i leave the girls up the front and i sort out the back end of the boat.

So to say the helmsmen is a bit of a passanger i think in all honesty is not true. A good skipper can still help out, and if he/she says he cant because hes to far away then he probably needs to think on his mooring techniques.

In fairness though, i have only ever had the one cc and thats the one im on now. It may be very different on other boats.

 

[alant]

I have a Moody 425 centre cockpit which I have sailedl in the Med for the last 5 years. Prior to that all my sailing was in aft cockpit yachts over the last 30 odd years

Prior to purchase I was warned about all the stuff already mentioned, typically

- exposed cockpit
- worse motion
- cant lie down in cockpit
- boom sweeps cockpit
- poor ventilation in aft cabin
- steep companionway steps

My personal experience is that none of these things have proved to be an issue. On the other hand the benefits have ben great: -

- huge aft cabin with centre line bunk
- privacy when guests are on board
- privacy when moored stern to
- spacious aft deck for entertaining and sunbathing

Its true the cockpit is smaller than is fashionable today, particularly with some of the modern broad beamed designs, but then I would worry about having a cockpit that size anyway.

A CC might not suit everyone but I have been very hsppy with my choice. In fact the only time I think about it is when the old concerns get trotted out.

You forgot, steering cables have further to run & emergency tiller leave a lot to be desired should the cables fail.

 

[Poignard]

An aft cockpit is best for fishing, and cleaning your catch,especially with a low freeboard. Much easier to lift a bucket of water on board and you can trail your hand in the sea to wash the blood and guts off.

 

[Sandy]

I read in Yachting monthly that Tom Cunliffe does not like centre cockpit yachts under (I don't recall the length) lets say 50ft.

For the record; I don't either nor do I like boats with two wheels!