Why doesn't Tom Cunliffe Like Centre Cockpits?

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dewent

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I read in Yachting monthly that Tom Cunliffe does not like centre cockpit yachts under (I don't recall the length) lets say 50ft.

I am looking to replace our well loved Bavaria 42 that has seen me from novice to half competent over a few years. She been great fun but now I was thinking about sailing farther afield so was thinking of something a bit tougher.

There seem to be a lot of 2nd hand centre cockpit boats from some of the "quality brands" - so what's not to like? I have only ever sailed rear cockpit Bavaria's.
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
He doesn't like deck saloons either.
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at the risk of being struck by lightning, TC's opinion is just that despite his vast experience, not Holy Writ. If there was any fundamental flaw with either type they wouldn't exist, although the limited numbers do suggest some drawbacks that strike a chord in the minds of a significant proportion of buyers.

my tuppence worth is that, other things being equal, a centre cockpit boat under 50' is likely to have a smaller cockpit than its equivalents, which would put off both serious sailors and holiday sailors. Also, the steering position is higher up, which may be conducive to both seasickness and exposure to seas coming aboard, and also forces the C of A of the mainsail upwards.

I now await demolition by vastly more opinionated and (naturally) experienced forumites whose own prejudices completely outweigh my own modest observations.....
 
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I have sailed lots of aft cockpit yachts and some centre cockpits. To be honest both have sailed just as well and I have not really thought about it. My own yacht is a centre cockpit.

Some centre cockpits can ruin the line of a yacht's hull, others are not as apparent. Sitting at the quarter beating up wind is better on aft cockpit yachts but it can be also be done well on a centre cockpit.

I feel that my aft cabin is more private and away from it all with the centre cockpit, on an aft cockpit, not so much. The crew can sit around the aft cabin coachroof on the centre cockpit and fish to their hearts content without getting in the way of the helm or sheet winches. I can be sent to the dog house at the back!

When berthing stern too the centre cockpit still has an element of privacy from the quay but you can get clobbered by the boom in a centre cockpit. Rigging a boom tent is easy and it protects the centre cockpit.

You know what they say about opinions?
 
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Some people don't like:

- the look

- You tend to be perched higher up. This can be great for seeing over the coachroof, but puts the crew well above the centre of roll, so some say they don't like the motion at sea and feel more vunerable to falling overboard.

That said, I've happily cruised in all sorts of weather in both a Moody 33 and a Westerly 33 with centre cockpit. Neither are particular beauties, but both boats looked after us.
 
Grumpybear said:
...
my tuppence worth is that, other things being equal, a centre cockpit boat under 50' is likely to have a smaller cockpit than its equivalents, which would put off both serious sailors and holiday sailors. .....
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Silly I know but that is the reason we discounted them as it failed the 'could I lay down flat on my back in the cockpit test'. When I am at anchor or on the quayside I like to lay down, watch the world go by or just have a sleep, could not do this in the 40 foot C.C. boats we saw. But they do have other good qualities, normally a large stern cabin for one.
I also discounted boats with twin wheels as this also stopped me laying flat out. It is strange what can be a deal breaker on a boat.
There were other qualities I looked at but for the sake of brevity will not go into them here.
 
Grumpybear said:
.... a centre cockpit boat under 50' is likely to have a smaller cockpit than its equivalents,....
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jordanbasset said:
Silly I know but that is the reason we discounted them as it failed the 'could I lay down flat on my back in the cockpit test'. ....
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Ah ha! You can at 5' 8" on a Rival 41C (just).

Here is a good comparison of both types on the same class. The drawings show the layout and cutaways of the Rival 41A and Rival 41C, aft and centre cockpits respectively.

http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/brochures/brr41.htm

There is one point where the aft cockpit wins hands down, and that is the view in heavy weather as the bow rises and falls. A far more impressive view than from a centre cockpit.
 
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BlowingOldBoots said:
Ah ha! You can at 5' 8" on a Rival 41C (just).

Here is a good comparison of both types on the same class. The drawings show the layout and cutaways of the Rival 41A and Rival 41C, aft and centre cockpits respectively.

http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/brochures/brr41.htm

There was thing where the aft cockpit wins hands down, and that is the view in heavy weather as the bow rises and falls. A far more impressive view than from a centre cockpit.
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Lovely boats, unfortunately I am 6'2" so would need to chop 6 inches off my legs (don't think chopping my head off is practicable):D
 
jordanbasset said:
Lovely boats, unfortunately I am 6'2" so would need to chop 6 inches off my legs (don't think chopping my head off is practicable):D
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I think I'm 5'10", just tried laying in my 41C cockpit and theres about 1" to spare - still doesnt help you at 6'2" :) One of the beauties of the Rival is that the CC design is still low to the water, it doesnt look top heavy. The trade off is that its not a walk through below deck for those over 4' 3" :D

My reasons for choice are very similar to BoB's, though being stern to on my Rival is a rare phonemon! Curiously, I dont remember feeling as exposed to the boom in CC boats as in Aft boats - and I've sailed a fair few of each too.
 
I have found some aft cockpits down right scary! 2 piddly wires strung across the transom. ok if your a racer, a nightmare with children, sunglasses on the cockpit floor, mugs and beverages. Of which I have lost all apart from a child.
 
Center cockpit.

Couldnt really care what TC thinks to be honest, its your money buy what you like. Though you do have to at least consider his reasoning considering it is based on vast experience.

Old fashioned center cockpit boats had the fore and aft cabins seperated by a conventional cockpit just high enough to allow self draining. Possibly with just enough room to fit the engine under the cockpit sole.

More modern designs tend to have the cockpit much higher up to allow cabins and walkways under it. This can lead to a more exposed cockpit and a more exagerrated movement due to the higher position when pitching or rolling.

For some people the accomodation layout of a stern cabin boat is ideal others prefer everything forward . Have a look at a few and see what you think but try to imagine what the cockpit will be like heeled over sailing in a seaway.
 
Two reasons why I, personally wouldn't want a centre cockpit. Firstly, the 'perched high up' aspect that would mean more rolling for crew in the cockpit. Secondly, I hate the claustrophobia-inducing passageways that tend to lead from saloon to aft cabin. But I agree that 'you pays your money and you takes your choice' (or whatever).
 
The heyday of the sub 40' centre cockpit was in the 1980s when UK buyers and builders were a mojor force the European market. Accommodation was the big sales feature and the aft cabins sold the boat.

From then on the growth market in Europe was the Med where aft cockpits and walk through transoms were much better suited to the environment. Actually a number of European builders have flirted with CCs, many very good, but they have never found the volume sales to justify keeping them in the range.

The drawbacks have already been mentioned, to which you could add if you were going to cruise the Med, less than ideal for mooring stern to and the balance of inside to outside space not so good for the outdoor lifestyle.
 
To echo what a couple of other people have said, a centre cockpit feels more exposed to me, because it's higher up. The different motion doesn't particularly bother me (to be honest, I have never particularly noticed it) . The feeling of being more exposed may be entirely psychological because it seems to wear off after a while.

It's quite handy to have the owner shut away at the back :)
 
I think centre-cockpit is a bit of a push once you get below 40 feet. The cockpit infringest too much on the accommodation. I really like the large stateroom cabin you get with cc boats (e.g. Beneteau 40cc) and personally find the cockpit a bit more secure and sheltered. Whilst you get a bit more rolling movement, there's a handy place to put the mainsheet traveller (right behind the helm) which means they're a bit easier to control short-handed. I would concede that tiller steering and self steering systems aren't really a possibility on CC boats.

As with all boats, they're a bit of a compromise. You get some really nice things on a CC boat and some things that work a bit better on an aft cockpit boat
 
I have a Moody 425 centre cockpit which I have sailedl in the Med for the last 5 years. Prior to that all my sailing was in aft cockpit yachts over the last 30 odd years

Prior to purchase I was warned about all the stuff already mentioned, typically

- exposed cockpit
- worse motion
- cant lie down in cockpit
- boom sweeps cockpit
- poor ventilation in aft cabin
- steep companionway steps

My personal experience is that none of these things have proved to be an issue. On the other hand the benefits have ben great: -

- huge aft cabin with centre line bunk
- privacy when guests are on board
- privacy when moored stern to
- spacious aft deck for entertaining and sunbathing

Its true the cockpit is smaller than is fashionable today, particularly with some of the modern broad beamed designs, but then I would worry about having a cockpit that size anyway.

A CC might not suit everyone but I have been very hsppy with my choice. In fact the only time I think about it is when the old concerns get trotted out.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Ah ha! You can at 5' 8" on a Rival 41C (just).

Here is a good comparison of both types on the same class. The drawings show the layout and cutaways of the Rival 41A and Rival 41C, aft and centre cockpits respectively.

http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/brochures/brr41.htm

There is one point where the aft cockpit wins hands down, and that is the view in heavy weather as the bow rises and falls. A far more impressive view than from a centre cockpit.
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And on my boat, 6,3 you would have, on both sides. So some to spare for the beverage!

Plus shes for sale:)
 
I wasn't a fan of CCs until I went on a friends Moody with one... then I saw the palatial aft cabin. I immediately had to instruct my friend to never let SWMBO on board his boat as:-

1. she would fall in love with it.

2. want to buy one, and

3. I can't afford it.
 
Puffin_Billy said:
I wasn't a fan of CCs until I went on a friends Moody with one... then I saw the palatial aft cabin. I immediately had to instruct my friend to never let SWMBO on board his boat as:-

1. she would fall in love with it.

2. want to buy one, and

3. I can't afford it.
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You should see the size of the mirror in the aft cabin on mine. Excellent for the lady to do her makeup bits, and other things of course.....:)
 
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